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Post by Sam Fain on May 7, 2018 11:52:18 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but his popularity rose because he put on one of the greatest televised matches of all time with Kazuchika Okada at Wrestle Kingdom 11 and before that was the first gaijin to win the G1 CLIMAX and then followed it up with incredible matches with Okada again, Michael Elgin, and Tetsuya Naito. The buzz on Omega began BEFORE those tweets and a full YEAR before his match with Jericho. Universal interest is not down to the point it doesn't exist any longer. I'm not sure what sites, subreddits, and twitter accounts you're following, but I still see his name brought up plenty. Less than it was a year ago, perhaps, but, man, I'm sincerely failing to see your point of view on this.
How did Balor have a following pre NXT? Nakaumra? Karl Anderson? Theses guys were known quantities and got reactions on day one, not because of WWE exposure. And Kenny is arguably more popular than any of those guys, with the possible exception of Nakamura.
The guy is a known and established quantity. Period. There's simply no argument there. Again, of course your every day WWE, Roman Reigns wearing, Seth Rollins chanting, John Cena dissing, Total Bellas watching, IWC fan might not have him as highly ranked or have their NJPW World subscription, but there's a larger fan-base out there you're ignoring and I think that's where the disconnect in our conversation is occurring. Just because one company is the most profitable, does not make it the only game in town. Plenty of people still buy Samsung phones (maybe that's bad example as they're a little closer in stature with Apple than WWE vs NJPW, but hopefully you get my point). They're also no where near the best. The quality of WWE matches, storylines, and presentation has seen a decline and while there is little doubt that they have some of the most talented guys in the world on their roster, they aren't the given the opportunity to truly show it that much compared to NJPW. But that's another conversation for another time.
Put bluntly, the WWE does not make or break a wrestler's popularity or checkbook these days in the eyes of many, many fans. Are we comparing tens of thousands of people to a million? Yeah. But Kenny Omega, Matt & Nick Jackson, Cody, Matt Riddle, etc. are still stuffing their bank accounts and making more money than a lot of guys who work for the bigger company and that's a fact.
Clearly there's no meeting of the minds on this one, so we'll have to chalk it up to diverging points of view. I just wanted to talk about NJPW and Okada vs Omega 4. Perhaps I picked the wrong place to do it.
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Post by Swarm on May 7, 2018 13:26:18 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but his popularity rose because he put on one of the greatest televised matches of all time with Kazuchika Okada at Wrestle Kingdom 11 and before that was the first gaijin to win the G1 CLIMAX and then followed it up with incredible matches with Okada again, Michael Elgin, and Tetsuya Naito. The buzz on Omega began BEFORE those tweets and a full YEAR before his match with Jericho. Universal interest is not down to the point it doesn't exist any longer. I'm not sure what sites, subreddits, and twitter accounts you're following, but I still see his name brought up plenty. Less than it was a year ago, perhaps, but, man, I'm sincerely failing to see your point of view on this. How did Balor have a following pre NXT? Nakaumra? Karl Anderson? Theses guys were known quantities and got reactions on day one, not because of WWE exposure. And Kenny is arguably more popular than any of those guys, with the possible exception of Nakamura. The guy is a known and established quantity. Period. There's simply no argument there. Again, of course your every day WWE, Roman Reigns wearing, Seth Rollins chanting, John Cena dissing, Total Bellas watching, IWC fan might not have him as highly ranked or have their NJPW World subscription, but there's a larger fan-base out there you're ignoring and I think that's where the disconnect in our conversation is occurring. Just because one company is the most profitable, does not make it the only game in town. Plenty of people still buy Samsung phones (maybe that's bad example as they're a little closer in stature with Apple than WWE vs NJPW, but hopefully you get my point). They're also no where near the best. The quality of WWE matches, storylines, and presentation has seen a decline and while there is little doubt that they have some of the most talented guys in the world on their roster, they aren't the given the opportunity to truly show it that much compared to NJPW. But that's another conversation for another time. Put bluntly, the WWE does not make or break a wrestler's popularity or checkbook these days in the eyes of many, many fans. Are we comparing tens of thousands of people to a million? Yeah. But Kenny Omega, Matt & Nick Jackson, Cody, Matt Riddle, etc. are still stuffing their bank accounts and making more money than a lot of guys who work for the bigger company and that's a fact. Clearly there's no meeting of the minds on this one, so we'll have to chalk it up to diverging points of view. I just wanted to talk about NJPW and Okada vs Omega 4. Perhaps I picked the wrong place to do it.Perhaps. There's no way for me to convince you that I no longer see the buzz, posts etc about Omega everywhere like I used to. That's all I'm saying. Like it or not, WWE is the center of the wrestling universe to which all other feds revolve around. That's why Omega earned global buzz from simple tweets with New Day (not his matches with Okada prior - not with casual fans who weren't already watching NJPW and ROH). That's why a match with Jericho is all of a sudden a mega match, and why a mid carder like Cody can walk into NJPW and become a top guy. And that's why there is no arguing that Daniel Bryan is a bigger star now than he was before he came to WWE. Has nothing to do with his income, happiness etc...I'm just pointing out how he used to pop up in every thread on every site - people were talking about him in threads that has nothing to do w him and I have not seen that in about a year. For example, where is the rabid online buzz for this match? Maybe I'm just not finding it.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2018 13:59:38 GMT -5
I don't have a dog in this fight but IIRC the first tweets to New Day happened in 2016, before Omega won the G1 and before the Okada/Omega trilogy last year.
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Post by Sam Fain on May 7, 2018 14:14:30 GMT -5
Perhaps...
I'm convinced you no longer see the buzz, trust me. I just don't know where you're looking to not see something. Because it's out there. Again, I've never disputed that it's not as high as it has been, but it still exists.
WWE is NOT the center of the wrestling universe to which all other feds revolve. They are the biggest organization in the world with the largest reach. Of course, they are. But not everyone lives and dies by what they do. NJPW is not dependent on WWE for business, ideas, talent, or promotion.
If Omega didn't have global buzz before the New Day tweets and Jericho feud, tell me why Sports Illustrated did an article on him July of 2016. Also, why would Jericho want a feud with him?
Google had Kenny Omega trending higher in January 2017 than any other point. That was before Jericho, before the New Day tweets, and it was all because of the Okada match at Wrestle Kingdom. In fact, he didn't trend as high during the Jericho match as he did for the Okada match. I think that speaks volumes (and, yes, means there's not as much "buzz" now as then, I've never disputed that). Additionally, Kenny Omega trended higher after the Wrestle Kingdom match in 2017 than Chris Jericho, any member of the New Day, and Seth Rollins, to name a few. Of course, he didn't trend higher than Roman Reigns or John Cena. Nor has NJPW trended higher than WWE. I get all that. I say again, in case it gets missed, I GET ALL THAT. I'm not arguing about their popularity on a global scale. It blows New Japan's out of the water.
Cody did not walk into NJPW and become a top guy. He was a midcarder when he started and even now is still only considered upper midcarder in the New Japan hierarchy, and frankly has gotten more of a rub in NJPW due to his interactions with the Young Bucks and Omega and his incredible heel work, not because he's a WWE guy. The only time he main evented in NJPW was for the G1 special show last year against Okada which was just smart, because of course he has a bigger name to casual fans than most of the NJPW roster. But, remember, the tournament was about Omega and the main event of the second night was Omega winning the US Title. And there were over 2000 people in that building rabid to see Kenny Omega, not Cody.
I never argued about Daniel Bryan's status as bigger now than before WWE and I never would. That would be crazy. Nor would I argue that if Omega made the jump to the WWE right now, he would have the potential to be a bigger star. But the game is changing. NJPW and ROH are getting more exposure and while they will likely NEVER compete with WWE when it comes to sheer scale, that doesn't mean they don't have the better product which positions them to have the ability to create stars within the medium of pro wrestling. NJPW won't create a global star the likes of John Cena or Steve Austin or Rock or Hogan anytime soon if ever, probably never. I'm not being unrealistic here, I get the way the landscape of the business looks. I just happen to look beyond the one company that sits at the top to see that there's plenty out there to enjoy and appreciate and I am by no means alone.
The upcoming match is a headline on f4wonline, wrestlinginc, mandatory, what culture, fightful, wrestlingrumors, sportskeeda, 411mania, prowrestling.com, the ring report, pro wrestling mania, has multiple reddit threads in both the NJPW sub reddit and SquaredCircle. It's even covered on The Nation and in the Sporting News.
Their previous matches have been covered by ESPN, CBS Sports, and Sports Illustrated. Something that is usually only reserved for the biggest of WWE matches. I don't know what more proof I need that it's still out there. Or that the profile isn't higher than any other non WWE event, matchup, or story in decades.
I think it has a lot to do with money and happiness. If someone can make the money and be happy and doesn't need the WWE, that says something. Something positive about the business and the medium and artform.
In closing: Yes, WWE is the biggest company with the biggest reach, and the ability to help create mega-stars that have visibility far outside the wrestling world. Yes, Kenny Omega's presence is not close their top stars, nor is it what it was a year or year and a half ago to the casual fan, but it is by no means absent and there are still plenty of wrestling fans and NJPW fans that put him at the top or near the top of their lists every day. I never argued ANY of that and, again, all I wanted to do was talk Okada vs Omega which literally has NOTHING to do with WWE, nor should it.
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Post by Sam Fain on May 7, 2018 14:17:24 GMT -5
@kernodle You're right. Xavier Woods and Kenny have been tweeting at one another for a while. Going back to at least January of 2016 from what I could find. Probably before that, too.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2018 14:21:31 GMT -5
Cody did not walk into NJPW and become a top guy. He was a midcarder when he started and even now is still only considered upper midcarder in the New Japan hierarchy, and frankly has gotten more of a rub in NJPW due to his interactions with the Young Bucks and Omega and his incredible heel work, not because he's a WWE guy. The only time he main evented in NJPW was for the G1 special show last year against Okada which was just smart, because of course he has a bigger name to casual fans than most of the NJPW roster. But, remember, the tournament was about Omega and the main event of the second night was Omega winning the US Title. And there were over 2000 people in that building rabid to see Kenny Omega, not CodyBingo. I just want to add that it's really, really undersold how much Cody marrying his on-screen career to the Bucks and Omega benefitted him. He needed them way more than they needed him.
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Post by Sam Fain on May 7, 2018 14:31:00 GMT -5
Bingo. I just want to add that it's really, really undersold how much Cody marrying his on-screen career to the Bucks and Omega benefitted him. He needed them way more than they needed him. For sure! I think Cody probably helped bring some eyes to Being the Elite and NJPW & ROH, but mostly, I think he was legitimized in the eyes of the existing and growing fanbase more because of the association than the other way around. It really is kind of fascinating to see and I think that all four guys have really had a profound effect on the way you can do business in the wrestling world apart from the WWE. When you look at what the Bucks alone have been able to do with merchandising and helping to build the Bullet Club into what it is post Devitt and Styles, it's a pretty great story by itself. Add in Omega and Cody and the potential for All In and it really could redefine the way talents can grow without being tied down to any one company.
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Post by Swarm on May 7, 2018 14:50:14 GMT -5
all I wanted to do was talk Okada vs Omega which literally has NOTHING to do with WWE, nor should it. You responded to my post about Omega losing steam since about a year ago. Part of my reasoning is that WWE and other casual NJPW/ROH fans lost interest in him post G1 and post Jericho when he didn't show up in the Rumble or at Mania - I guess once he re signed with NJPW. WWE will always be the center of the wrestling world. It's why a guy like retired Ryback can remain relevant in the IWC while talking about literally nothing of importance, why AJ vs.Nakamura is happening in WWE right now, why every Indy wrestler seems to join NXT and why Kenny Omega will probably be there one day. This isn t WWE bias, just what I see as a casual observer.
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Post by Swarm on May 7, 2018 14:51:31 GMT -5
I don't have a dog in this fight but IIRC the first tweets to New Day happened in 2016, before Omega won the G1 and before the Okada/Omega trilogy last year. That's my point. He got over with casual fan before any of that simply by associating himself online w WWE guys.
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Post by Swarm on May 7, 2018 14:52:43 GMT -5
Cody did not walk into NJPW and become a top guy. He was a midcarder when he started and even now is still only considered upper midcarder in the New Japan hierarchy, and frankly has gotten more of a rub in NJPW due to his interactions with the Young Bucks and Omega and his incredible heel work, not because he's a WWE guy. The only time he main evented in NJPW was for the G1 special show last year against Okada which was just smart, because of course he has a bigger name to casual fans than most of the NJPW roster. But, remember, the tournament was about Omega and the main event of the second night was Omega winning the US Title. And there were over 2000 people in that building rabid to see Kenny Omega, not CodyBingo. I just want to add that it's really, really undersold how much Cody marrying his on-screen career to the Bucks and Omega benefitted him. He needed them way more than they needed him. I'm not NJPW guy, so I wouldn't know the exact hierarchy, but to casual fans Cody is absolutely treated like a top guy there for no justifiable reason than he is an ex WWE guy. He's involved with the top guys, in the top group etc...good enough to qualify in my book as main guy in NJPW.
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