The Shepard
Infinity Challenge
Together we can defeat the Black Death!
Posts: 84 
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Post by The Shepard on Dec 9, 2012 15:36:48 GMT -5
Not sure if he fits in the classics thread, but I wasn't sure where else to put this topic. Kenta Kobashi officially announced his retirement from wrestling yesterday at a NOAH show. Kobashi who had been told he would be released from his contract at the end of the year decided to retire rather than become a freelancer at 45 yrs old. He will officially retire, with ceremony, in a NOAH ring in late February on his 25th anniversary in the business. If you never had the chance to see Kobashi in the ring, I strongly recommend you check out his 2005 match against Samoa Joe from ROH.
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Post by floydthebarber on Dec 10, 2012 1:28:17 GMT -5
Thanks for the recommend. Great match! Crowd was awesome!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2012 9:19:36 GMT -5
I'd recommend the January 20th 1997 match with Mitsuharu Misawa as well. Definitely Kobashi's best match.
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Post by marktaggart on Dec 10, 2012 9:24:59 GMT -5
I'd recommend the January 20th 1997 match with Mitsuharu Misawa as well. Definitely Kobashi's best match. It's hard to pick just one of the matches with Misawa and say any one is "the" best. It is one of the most amazing rivalries in wrestling history. Unfortunately, those matches arguably led to untimely demise of Misawa and knocked some good years off of Kobashi as well. To say those guys gave their bodies for wrestling is an amazing understatement. |
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Post by TDalton on Dec 10, 2012 9:25:03 GMT -5
Seems like just yesterday when was a rookie and Stan Hansen would beat the living hell out of him.
One of the best in-ring talents ever.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2012 15:51:50 GMT -5
It's hard to pick just one of the matches with Misawa and say any one is "the" best. I went with 1/20/97 because it was so unique and different from the rest of their matches. Kobashi used a totally original strategy (seriously, watch that match back and be in awe of the fact nobody tried that with Misawa earlier) and the end result is a unique match in a feud that largely followed the same pattern. It is one of the most amazing rivalries in wrestling history. I completely agree. Unfortunately, those matches arguably led to untimely demise of Misawa and knocked some good years off of Kobashi as well. I agree. It could be argued Misawa shoving himself and Kobashi down NOAH fans' throats and keeping themselves in the main event having those kinds of matches instead of elevating new talent is just as responsible for what happened to them. When they don't put the young guys over and give them the chance to go out there and main event, they forced themselves into having those kinds of matches for the rest of their time in the business. To say those guys gave their bodies for wrestling is an amazing understatement. Indeed. Seems like just yesterday when was a rookie and Stan Hansen would beat the living hell out of him. One of the best in-ring talents ever. Love this match. Anyone who hasn't seen it and wants a good idea of what the rage is with Kobashi or 90s AJPW, check it out. |
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Post by Pete on Dec 11, 2012 23:00:36 GMT -5
This is years overdue for Kenta, frankly. I wish his "one more match" had been after his cancer treatment.
There are a number of issues I have with Misawa as a guy in charge for both All-Japan and NOAH, but at least in NOAH I don't place the inability to create new stars squarely on him. In fact, Misawa continuing to put the GHC title on himself actually came across the opposite of how it usually does--holding the belt until a new "ace" could be found actually came across as a selfless act rather than a booker's ego run amok. The hard facts are, Rikio and Morishima and Marufuji and KENTA didn't have what it takes to carry a promotion. Misawa gave it the college try with them and they weren't capable of doing it. This came after Jun Akiyama failed to further develop after one of the best rookie years ever where he looked like a GOAT candidate as a worker.
The bigger issue with Misawa and Kobashi specifically is that they cultivated a style which was tremendousl entertaining, but that was unsustainable, which led to an inability for All-Japan to produce anyone to take over for the Four Corners and maintain business. Unlike Kawada and Taue neither of them ever considered the phrase "work smarter, not harder." Then they went from brilliant psychological matches combined with state-of-the-art moves to masturbatory "let's see how many times we can land on our heads" bullshit, and eventually that was enough to cost Misawa his life.
Sorry for being a downer again. Any of the Kobashi/Hansen matches are pure gold, but I like the 7/93 version the best.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2012 17:24:28 GMT -5
The hard facts are, Rikio and Morishima and Marufuji and KENTA didn't have what it takes to carry a promotion. Rikio didn't. Morishima has carried NOAH for years. Marufuji was screwed over and KENTA has never, and likely will never be given the ball due to his attitude. Misawa gave it the college try with them and they weren't capable of doing it. Bullshit. Misawa built the company around himself and Kobashi, look at the 2005 Dome show, both of the main events were centered around them, and everyone of the "New Four Kings" were in the undercard. This came after Jun Akiyama failed to further develop after one of the best rookie years ever where he looked like a GOAT candidate as a worker. He failed to further develop? He was booked to be a top guy in NOAH until, oh that's right...they jobbed him to Ogawa. And again to Kobashi. Wanna point at a specific date when NOAH's problems started? 7/10/04, when Kobashi beat Akiyama at the Dome. Kobashi wins, goes through almost a YEAR of meaningless defenses until Misawa shoves Rikio down the fans throat. Akiyama winning would have finally given Akiyama that big win and solidified him as a top guy. Now, he's just a dude known for choking against Kobashi. The bigger issue with Misawa and Kobashi specifically is that they cultivated a style which was tremendously entertaining They didn't cultivate a damn thing. Choshu, Jumbo and Tenryu were the guys who started that whole style, Kobashi and Misawa are the ones who ruined it. but that was unsustainable, which led to an inability for All-Japan to produce anyone to take over for the Four Corners and maintain business. I agree. Unlike Kawada and Taue neither of them ever considered the phrase "work smarter, not harder." I agree. Then they went from brilliant psychological matches combined with state-of-the-art moves to masturbatory "let's see how many times we can land on our heads" bullshit, and eventually that was enough to cost Misawa his life. I agree. Sorry for being a downer again. Any of the Kobashi/Hansen matches are pure gold, but I like the 7/93 version the best. Once again, I agree. |
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Post by Pete on Dec 12, 2012 21:04:53 GMT -5
Rikio didn't. Morishima has carried NOAH for years. Marufuji was screwed over and KENTA has never, and likely will never be given the ball due to his attitude. I really don't care personally for any of those four, and Marufuji in particular is probably my absolute least favorite puro guy of the past 15 years. I have no way of being objective on any of them. (Yet with Ogawa, who was basically FF material in All-Japan outside of the 6-mans and some tags...I absolutely loved the fact that a ratboy heel got over in NOAH by winning matches with fluke rollups. I wish that trend could have continued.) Actually I thought the warning signs were there long before NOAH existed. Akiyama had already plateaued as far as in-ring ability by the late '90s and there were already curious (to say the least) booking moves like having him job to Takao Omori in 7 seconds. How much of that was bad luck due to a too-conservative front office not knowing how to use him and how much of that Akiyama brought on himself, I have no idea. I think there was definitely a major sea change in how Choshu and '80s Jumbo and Tenryu worked and how the 4 Corners worked. One built on the other. Those guys could still rely on DDQs and double countouts, for one thing. The Four Corners moves were more advanced, before they got too ridiculous. Choshu was high-energy and a great, great worker...but let's be real: when I made a bootleg for him I struggled to fill out his entire offense. Even Kawada and Taue were more versatile in that regard. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2012 21:15:46 GMT -5
I really don't care personally for any of those four, and Marufuji in particular is probably my absolute least favorite puro guy of the past 15 years. I have no way of being objective on any of them. Well at least you admit it. (Yet with Ogawa, who was basically FF material in All-Japan outside of the 6-mans and some tags...I absolutely loved the fact that a ratboy heel got over in NOAH by winning matches with fluke rollups. I wish that trend could have continued.) I don't! Then again I hate Ogawa and have no way of being objective on him, so we're gonna have to agree to disagree. Actually I thought the warning signs were there long before NOAH existed. Akiyama had already plateaued as far as in-ring ability by the late '90s and there were already curious (to say the least) booking moves like having him job to Takao Omori in 7 seconds. Fair enough, but it's undeniable they had a chance to reverse at least some of the damage, if not most of it, by having Akiyama be the one to dethrone Kobashi. Look at who Kobashi ended up facing after Akiyama. Minoru Suzuki, Mike Awesome, I believe the Akitoshi Saito defense followed. He faced Taue, but who really thought Taue was going to win when Akiyama, who had been hyped as the guy to get the job done, couldn't? Akiyama ended up losing, and now what? NOAH needs a top veteran draw, and Akiyama's not the guy largely because he choked at the Dome. I think there was definitely a major sea change in how Choshu and '80s Jumbo and Tenryu worked and how the 4 Corners worked. One built on the other. Those guys could still rely on DDQs and double countouts, for one thing. Watch the Jumbo/Tenryu matches from 1989, they were starting to move away from the 80s norm of non finishes and were basically laying the groundwork for what the 90s AJPW main event scene would destroy. The Four Corners moves were more advanced, before they got too ridiculous. The moves don't mean anything, what I'm talking about is the actual style of match they were having. The foundation for that was laid by Choshu, Tenryu and Jumbo. Especially the latter two. Watch the June 1989 match. The formula there was pretty much it as far as the foundation of the 90s AJ main event style. Choshu was high-energy and a great, great worker...but let's be real: when I made a bootleg for him I struggled to fill out his entire offense. Wrestling's not about how many moves you can do. It's about using what you can do and getting the most out of it. Choshu did that and was damn good at it. Even Kawada and Taue were more versatile in that regard. Agreed, and I'd also agree that they were better than Choshu overall. Back to the topic of Kobashi. He should have retired a long, long time ago. I like the guy a lot, the Joe match and 1/20/97 with Misawa are two of my all time favorite matches...but he's not the gigantic loss to wrestling in 2012/2013 that some people are acting like he is. |
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