creating a 3 man tag team

[Justin Case]

Jun 19, 2013 12:26:47 GMT -5 Crossbones said:

The * was just to mean that it was a tag finisher and ** was a trio finisher in the planning stage. I normally don't use the (ch X) on moves, but I will if you think it adds more depth? Yea, Werner does a really awesome job on these.

Other options you could do for the tag finishers is making all finishers (0) rating for singles. This still gives individual wrestlers a great singles card having 3 FINISHER (0) Ratings which is on the level of Bex & Chaos who are stellar single wrestlers.

I do believe that the (ch X) on a card do add depth and keeps things balanced as well as follows the official guidelines that are in place. It's always good to have a deathjump option which the (ch G) and (ch H) provide. And the (ch A) offers an option to use the ropes, so all ring charts will be present for matches.

Otherwise, I think you have some pretty cool characters in the works. Whatever you decide to do stats wise will only help bring them to life and make your play even more exciting!

[Crossbones]

Thanks for all the advice Justin! It has helped me out greatly.

[LWPD]

Nice looking artwork alpex. A six man unit similar to The Shield could make for a really cool addition to CotG. If you enjoy designing your own cards, you may have interest in the Card Mechanic Bible. It covers a lot of FG game concepts (official and open source) that have been done over the years.

Jun 19, 2013 8:33:39 GMT -5 Crossbones said:

Riot

Level 1 Offense
1 clubbing forearm - 1
2 uppercut to jaw - 1
3 full nelson - 2 (pw)
4 tilt-around slam - 2
5 running spear - 2 (ag)
6 flying clothesline - 3

Level 2 Offense
1 flying frankensteiner - 2 (ag)
2 into the turnbuckle
3 snap DDT - 2
4 diving choke slam - 3
5 Aethran Power Bomb - 3
6 Riot Assault - 3 add 1

Level 3 Offense
1 out of ring ( c )
2 piledriver on announce table - 3
3 Aethran Coup Cannon - 3
4 SABOTAGE (+2)
5 WARBRINGER (+4) *(tag)
6 IMPENDING DOOM (+5) **(trios)

What do you think? Any suggestions would he helpful from here. Werner sent me the coloring of these guys and I'm wanting to get them in my fed asap and play them now.

Here are some thoughts on multiple finisher designations and competition specific finishers:

*Mathematically, each finisher (regardless of the attached potency) creates a 16.6% chance of outright rolling to end a match when on L30. Given those odds, each finisher designation has a very powerful effect on gameplay. At times that may be the goal (ie. creating a monster level card) but if that isn't the intent, there are ways to work around it.

*Designating competition specific finishers (ie. for use only in tag/trios matches) without some form of written addendum (ie. an outright instruction on what to do when outside the intended context) creates an open-ended gameplay scenario. For example, if a wrestler in a singles match rolls on an L30 tag finisher, players often will use house rules to determine whether to re-roll on L30 (which creates advantaged odds for that wrestler) or roll on L2O (creating a handicap).

One way to avoid those issues would be to use a comprehensive addendum when designating a finisher. For example:

LEVEL 3 OFFENSE
1. deathjump
2. out of ring (c)
3. piledriver on announce table - 3
4. Aethran Coup Cannon - 3
5. move - 3
6. SABOTAGE (+2)*

*When teaming with partner XYZ substitute WARBRINGER (+4); **When teaming with both XYZ & ABC substitute IMPENDING DOOM (+5)

In the above, one designation covers all three competition specific scenarios, without any need for ever having to re-roll. No odds are changed beyond what is stated. If the wrestler is in a tag or trios match 'without' his core partners, the moves are off the grid.

You could also further spice up the idea of a high potency trios finisher (where three wrestlers try to execute a move in unison) by crafting some form of contingency mechanic into the addendum. This could reflect that not only can high impact trios moves 'work', but they can also 'fail'. For example:

**When teaming with both XYZ & ABC substitute IMPENDING DOOM: roll 1d6 twice: if both roll results are even or odd numbers consecutively, the move is successful (add +5 to opponent's pin rating); if the rolls mismatch (one even result, one odd) the legal man botches the move and rolls his pin

From advantages and handicaps, to contingencies and wild card factors, there are countless ways to design cards with challenging triggers and effects. Something like a trios unit offers a lot to explore. Good luck and have fun bringing these characters to life!

[Crossbones]

Thanks LWPD for taking the time to post that as it is very helpful. That being said, what you posted brought up some question in my mind that I wanted to ask.

One way to avoid those issues would be to use a comprehensive addendum when designating a finisher. For example:

LEVEL 3 OFFENSE
1. deathjump
2. out of ring (c)
3. piledriver on announce table - 3
4. Aethran Coup Cannon - 3
5. move - 3
6. SABOTAGE (+2)*

*When teaming with partner XYZ substitute WARBRINGER (+4); **When teaming with both XYZ & ABC substitute IMPENDING DOOM (+5)

In the above, one designation covers all three competition specific scenarios, without any need for ever having to re-roll. No odds are changed beyond what is stated. If the wrestler is in a tag or trios match 'without' his core partners, the moves are off the grid.

My intent was that in a trios hardcore match, all three wrestlers would have full access to all their finishers. But, if you put them in a singles match then they have only have their singles finisher. How would I reflect is so that Riot wouldn't be just substituting SABOTAGE for WARBINGER or IMPENDING DOOM in a trios match? Cause I want him to have all three moves in a trios match, but only two finishers in a tag match or one finisher in a singles match.

But, what you said brings a new option to these characters as I want to make them a real powerhouse in trios hardcore matches.

[LWPD]

Jun 19, 2013 21:33:11 GMT -5 Crossbones said:

Thanks LWPD for taking the time to post that as it is very helpful. That being said, what you posted brought up some question in my mind that I wanted to ask.

One way to avoid those issues would be to use a comprehensive addendum when designating a finisher. For example:

LEVEL 3 OFFENSE
1. deathjump
2. out of ring (c)
3. piledriver on announce table - 3
4. Aethran Coup Cannon - 3
5. move - 3
6. SABOTAGE (+2)*

*When teaming with partner XYZ substitute WARBRINGER (+4); **When teaming with both XYZ & ABC substitute IMPENDING DOOM (+5)

In the above, one designation covers all three competition specific scenarios, without any need for ever having to re-roll. No odds are changed beyond what is stated. If the wrestler is in a tag or trios match 'without' his core partners, the moves are off the grid.

My intent was that in a trios hardcore match, all three wrestlers would have full access to all their finishers. But, if you put them in a singles match then they have only have their singles finisher. How would I reflect is so that Riot wouldn't be just substituting SABOTAGE for WARBINGER or IMPENDING DOOM in a trios match? Cause I want him to have all three moves in a trios match, but only two finishers in a tag match or one finisher in a singles match.

But, what you said brings a new option to these characters as I want to make them a real powerhouse in trios hardcore matches.

Two possible approaches would be to word the addendum as either i. discretionary (ie. It's Up To You Promoter) or ii. randomized (using some form of probability roll). Here is an example of each:

i. Limited Discretion (strategic):

*When teaming with partner XYZ, you may substitute WARBRINGER (+4) once per match; **When teaming with both XYZ & ABC, you may substitute either WARBRINGER (+4) or IMPENDING DOOM (+5) once per match

This allows the player to choose to use the higher potency finisher, while throwing in some very limited form of critical thinking (it can only be used once per match). An 'absolute' discretionary addendum would strip the 'once per match' limit and allow the player to use the higher potency finisher at will. There is a big difference between the two in terms of gameplay.

ii. Randomization (even/odd and range):

*When teaming with partner XYZ, roll 1d6: on all even rolls substitute WARBRINGER (+4); **When teaming with both XYZ & ABC, roll 1d6: 1-2: use SABOTAGE (+2), 3-4: substitute WARBRINGER (+4), 5-6 substitute IMPENDING DOOM (+5)

When randomizing, you can use dice probabilities to favor certain outcomes. A 2d6 platform will give more latitude than 1d6 (etc).

You could also combine these two concepts into some form of hybrid:

iii. Limited Discretion w/ randomization:

*Once per match, Riot can attempt to use higher end tag and trios finishers. When teaming with partner XYZ, roll 1d6: on an even roll substitute WARBRINGER (+4); **When teaming with both XYZ & ABC, roll 1d6: 1-2: use SABOTAGE (+2), 3-4: substitute WARBRINGER (+4), 5-6 substitute IMPENDING DOOM (+5)

There are many ways to play with discretionary limits in order to make a card more strategic. Adding risk factors (where moves can fail with consequence) is a personal favorite. Or you could eliminate limits entirely and grant the player absolute discretion. It's Up To You Promoter!

[Deleted]

Jun 20, 2013 7:26:32 GMT -5 LWPD said:

Jun 19, 2013 21:33:11 GMT -5 Crossbones said:

Thanks LWPD for taking the time to post that as it is very helpful. That being said, what you posted brought up some question in my mind that I wanted to ask.


*Once per match, Riot can attempt to use higher end tag and trios finishers. When teaming with partner XYZ, roll 1d6: on an even roll substitute WARBRINGER (+4); **When teaming with both XYZ & ABC, roll 1d6: 1-2: use SABOTAGE (+2), 3-4: substitute WARBRINGER (+4), 5-6 substitute IMPENDING DOOM (+5)

Never do this. It's choppy, clunky and nonsensical. Coming from someone who has headed the Z for years, I can tell you with 100% honestly that characters with zany mechanics are often the ones passed over at Galacticon and other community events. They are by far the least popular characters when it comes down to it.

Why is this character given a free pass to do whatever he likes "once per match"? With all due respect, promoters often end up making cards nobody wants to use because the stats are too high. a +2, +4 and +5 is way, way, way too strong. Nobody in COTG history has a card like this. And quite frankly, it kills the character. Nobody wants your bootleg coming into their fed and dominating. Just you. That goes for everyone who has ever attempted anything completely off the grid like a +2,+4 and a +5 finisher on the same card.

Make interesting characters. What makes these guys cool? Hardcore Gladiators? That's about as generic a starting point as it gets. Doesn't mean it can't work, but slapping multiple high finishers onto the back of a "hardcore guy" has been done a billion and one times. Who are these guys supposed to fight? They'd automatically be the strongest guys in the game. Is that what you are going for?

My advice is keep working at it. If this is a trios team, make one guy the singles star, one guy the tag star and the other the trios star. That makes them unique to each other, their opponents, and gives them individual characteristics. You're also giving these guys nowhere to go but down, starting them out so strong.

Apparently, the hardest thing to do is to create an interesting character without any funky mechanics. Morbid, Overtime, Pride, Ensor, Strong, Phenomenal Swift etc...All characters with regular cards, no mechanics, and all are Z legends in the community. My best advice to anyone ever trying to make a bootleg is to try researching cards like that (popular characters without any mechanics) when creating characters instead of treating it like you've entered into a crazy card mechanic contest. In fact, I really don't think anyone should even attempt a crazy mechanic character until they've learned how to make an interesting, popular character without one. Unless you don't want a lot of people using it. :-P

Good luck!

[Tournament Master]

Some good advice there from Swarm.

[Deleted]

Jun 20, 2013 8:47:20 GMT -5 Tournament Master said:

Some good advice there from Swarm.

Thank you.

I would give each guy a basic background explaining their fighting style. Quick example: The trios guy comes from a battalion of Gladiators who specializes in tri-warfare (or war involving group settings). He is best utilized when the action is wild and high flying (trios action). The tag specialist comes from an Aethran ground unit that specializes in tandem attacks (maybe a distract and attack style). The singles guy is the leader, and reps them in singles bouts. Kinda how the shield is built. They all have their strengths and weaknesses, which is what makes any character come to life.

Then I'd slap the singles guy with a +2 finisher (or a +2 and a +1), the tag guy with a +3 and the trios with a +4. Something like that. Then get creative with the defensive tags so it all comes together in the ring.

[Crossbones]

Thanks for all the advice guys! A lot to take in on this. So Swarm would you say with the singles guy to have no more than two finishers a +4 and 0 would be find? For the tag and trios characters to have their singles then tag or trios finishers?

I found the moves to be the hardest part of creating a wrestling card, cause I have a background already for them and how they are going to enter into the GWF.

[Deleted]

Jun 20, 2013 9:09:24 GMT -5 Crossbones said:

Thanks for all the advice guys! A lot to take in on this. So Swarm would you say with the singles guy to have no more than two finishers a +4 and 0 would be find? For the tag and trios characters to have their singles then tag or trios finishers?

I found the moves to be the hardest part of creating a wrestling card, cause I have a background already for them and how they are going to enter into the GWF.

For the singles guy def no more than two finishers. Remember, the original Harbinger had a (+3) and a (0) and I'm pretty sure he went unbeaten or close to it for almost every promoter playing Black Death. There's much more to a card than the finishers.

For the tag and trios guys, if you want them to have singles finishers I wouldn't make them stronger than (0), (+1) TOPS. You want to get over each guys strengths and make them distinct from each other. A trios specialist or tag specialist should be just that. If you make three guys and they are (+1)/(+2) singles guy, (0)/(+3) tag guy, and (0)/(+4)trios guy, you are creating an elite team right there.