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Post by lucifer on Jun 10, 2014 22:29:45 GMT -5
ANY release is cause for celebration!
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Post by Sam Fain on Jun 10, 2014 22:54:57 GMT -5
Can't argue with that! And even tho additions to the roster are always great, one of the best things about this game from the get go was the promise that wrestlers would change and grow (or not as the case may be). Good to see that hold true for the real world game content as well. It adds a flexibility to the game that, while still random and held to the dice gods, gives promoters lots of options in the push department.
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Post by MonkeyDBain on Jun 11, 2014 15:31:49 GMT -5
I can say that without a doubt I am not opposed to updates. Most of the guys need ones due to their terrible first cards. I have never seen so many (0) finishers before. Bobby Fish's CHASING THE DRAGON finisher is a (0)  In what world?? They have used it to with the tag belts 3 times in ROH, but in the game it is a non issue. Hopefully this set will give these guys good finisher ratings. Danielson's should be in the +3 to +4 range. |
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Post by Sam Fain on Jun 11, 2014 15:41:09 GMT -5
I kind of go back and forth on the finisher issue. While I agree that CHASING THE DRAGON should probably not be a (0), I also think we've seen plenty of times, especially in ROH, when finishers don't end a match. I'm ok with them not being too powerful if it adds a little drama.
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Post by aceldamas on Jun 11, 2014 15:47:25 GMT -5
I kind of go back and forth on the finisher issue. While I agree that CHASING THE DRAGON should probably not be a (0), I also think we've seen plenty of times, especially in ROH, when finishers don't end a match. I'm ok with them not being too powerful if it adds a little drama. LOL! You make a good point. An ROH rule should be that the first time a finisher comes up, you have to roll L:3 defense instead of PIN. |
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Post by MonkeyDBain on Jun 11, 2014 15:56:39 GMT -5
I kind of go back and forth on the finisher issue. While I agree that CHASING THE DRAGON should probably not be a (0), I also think we've seen plenty of times, especially in ROH, when finishers don't end a match. I'm ok with them not being too powerful if it adds a little drama. I don't agree with this at all. The finisher is a big part of the card, and having (0) finishers just makes no sense. And while ROH may do several false finishes from time to time, that is not a reason why everyone's finisher should be so bad. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2014 16:06:33 GMT -5
I can say that without a doubt I am not opposed to updates. Most of the guys need ones due to their terrible first cards. I have never seen so many (0) finishers before. Bobby Fish's CHASING THE DRAGON finisher is a (0) In what world?? They have used it to with the tag belts 3 times in ROH, but in the game it is a non issue. Hopefully this set will give these guys good finisher ratings. Danielson's should be in the +3 to +4 range. When Swarm and I designed the cards, we did them under the idea that lower PIN and finisher ratings would mean longer matches to better emulate the ROH style. That's why a lot of finishers seem underpowered. |
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Post by aceldamas on Jun 11, 2014 16:07:26 GMT -5
This brings up something I've been wondering about for a while about LOW.
The b&w cards do have very powerful finishers and better overall stats in general than the newer color cards. Is the design philosophy that all of these old school guys were that much better than today's wrestlers?
I guess what I'm asking is, are all of the different sets supposed to be relative as a whole or to the particular promotion/era they are?
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Post by Sam Fain on Jun 11, 2014 16:23:17 GMT -5
I kind of go back and forth on the finisher issue. While I agree that CHASING THE DRAGON should probably not be a (0), I also think we've seen plenty of times, especially in ROH, when finishers don't end a match. I'm ok with them not being too powerful if it adds a little drama. I don't agree with this at all. The finisher is a big part of the card, and having (0) finishers just makes no sense. And while ROH may do several false finishes from time to time, that is not a reason why everyone's finisher should be so bad. Interesting point of view. We definitely have a difference of opinion. I think the fact that a finisher automatically causes a PIN roll makes it pretty powerful in it's own right. I think too many finishers or overly powerful finishers are a detriment to the game and have even been a detriment to real pro wrestling. I'm the type of guy that appreciates lots of nearfalls and longer action. I think super charged or multiple finishers diminishes that possibility. I think finishers are important, but they're only a part of what makes a card in my mind. Power and agility, (c), chart ratings, and choice charts can have just as much of an impact on a match as finishers, albeit in a more subtle way. As can add 1s and PIN ratings. I'll even go one further and say that rather than have such a big disparity in PIN ratings (tho this is much more even in the ROH set than some others) concentrate on the down-3s and add 1 moves instead of 7(4) PINs and higher. As I said in my original post, I go back and forth on it. And some folks should have brutal powerful finishers, but not everyone. The mechanics of the game have evolved and grown over the years, but they're definitely deep and subtle in some ways. I'm all for whatever creates the most "drama" in the ring of my imagination. But of course, as Tom always says, "It's up to us". No reason you can't bump those finishers up or even have them equal an automatic pinfall if you want. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2014 16:38:08 GMT -5
I disagree that the color cards (speaking about ROH here) have weaker overall finishers than previous lotf b/w cards. In fact I remember most lotf having only (0) or (+1) finishers. A double (0) finisher is still very strong. ReDragon has done very well for me. I hate to keep going back to this but ch charts purposely have A LOT to do with how powerful a card is. That's something the popular rahl ratings never take into place and I know a lot of fans don't use them.
If you do use ch charts, Bobby Fish has a potential - 3 move vs. wrestlers with average to low power (ch F on level 2 O) that when successful gives him 3 level moves on level 2 offense. That gives him 6 - 3 moves, a double 0 finisher, and he has only 2 downs. He also has 4/6 ways to turn things around on L1O D (2 reversals and two tags) and on L3D he has the rare (lv) and (tag) separate, giving him 2 ways to escape when down. He's not amazing but he's better than his rep.
I'd say now that both he and O'Reilly could make arguments for updates if they can hold onto the straps for awhile.
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