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Post by TTX on Nov 6, 2014 6:08:16 GMT -5
I think Bucks may be held for an eventual PWG set. They haven't really changed in ROH in terms of status.
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Post by Demosthenes on Nov 6, 2014 6:57:06 GMT -5
Updated versions of Alexander and O'Reilly would make my day.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 10:15:35 GMT -5
I hope its not a bunch of updates..that wiuld be a third copy of the bucks. I really look at the game cards the same way WWE looks at their action figure toy line. Some WWF/E guys have multiple figures, because wrestlers aren't the same their whole careers, and unless your doing a LOW card for a retired or dead legend, there will always be opportunities to update wrestlers. The Bucks have evolved far beyond their b/w loft cards, and are presently evolving beyond their original ROH cards. One day it might make sense to upgrade them the same way WWE puts out multiple action figures for their roster.
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Post by pikemojo on Nov 6, 2014 11:36:53 GMT -5
I hope its not a bunch of updates..that wiuld be a third copy of the bucks. I really look at the game cards the same way WWE looks at their action figure toy line. Some WWF/E guys have multiple figures, because wrestlers aren't the same their whole careers, and unless your doing a LOW card for a retired or dead legend, there will always be opportunities to update wrestlers. The Bucks have evolved far beyond their b/w loft cards, and are presently evolving beyond their original ROH cards. One day it might make sense to upgrade them the same way WWE puts out multiple action figures for their roster. I don't completely disagree with the concept of what you are saying but The WWE puts out probably 3-4X the amount of figures as ROH does cards. That allows for and even requires that kind of structure. For those that don't religiously follow specific promotions, it can be annoying to get too many update cards when there are still members of the roster who have yet to see any sort of release. That said, I don't really think that we have seen TOO many updates. I'm still the type (and I assume I'm not alone) that looks at a set of 6 cards, for example, and if 2 cards are updates, I look at that as a 4 card set and assess the price according to that logic. Maybe I would use updates but odds are I would end up using the lower powered versions anyway since I mostly use them against Legends cards. I usually power-down the ROH & Chikara cards to fit better with Legends anyway. On the flip side, if I was someone who LOVED ROH, I'd probably want cards that were the best current representation of the wrestlers possible. The FG ROH team has to find that balance and for the most part I think they have.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 12:26:49 GMT -5
I really look at the game cards the same way WWE looks at their action figure toy line. Some WWF/E guys have multiple figures, because wrestlers aren't the same their whole careers, and unless your doing a LOW card for a retired or dead legend, there will always be opportunities to update wrestlers. The Bucks have evolved far beyond their b/w loft cards, and are presently evolving beyond their original ROH cards. One day it might make sense to upgrade them the same way WWE puts out multiple action figures for their roster. I don't completely disagree with the concept of what you are saying but The WWE puts out probably 3-4X the amount of figures as ROH does cards. That allows for and even requires that kind of structure. For those that don't religiously follow specific promotions, it can be annoying to get too many update cards when there are still members of the roster who have yet to see any sort of release. That said, I don't really think that we have seen TOO many updates. I'm still the type (and I assume I'm not alone) that looks at a set of 6 cards, for example, and if 2 cards are updates, I look at that as a 4 card set and assess the price according to that logic. Maybe I would use updates but odds are I would end up using the lower powered versions anyway since I mostly use them against Legends cards. I usually power-down the ROH & Chikara cards to fit better with Legends anyway. On the flip side, if I was someone who LOVED ROH, I'd probably want cards that were the best current representation of the wrestlers possible. The FG ROH team has to find that balance and for the most part I think they have. Final Battle could have easily been called the Peoples Pack, because a lot of loyal fans are going to get a lot of the things they've been asking for (and more). Credit to Tom making this one an 8 pack allowing us to fill some important spots.
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Post by aceldamas on Nov 6, 2014 13:09:12 GMT -5
I am down for any update that is necessary. Young Bucks under perform for me to the point I rarely use them (they shouldn't be jobbers). Sure some of it is the dice but I believe it has more to do with their cards being under powered. Cedric Alexander is another prime example of someone who needs an update. To someone who isn't into ROH, they might not see how necessary this is. As a big ROH fan, a Cedric update is a must! Maybe I would use updates but odds are I would end up using the lower powered versions anyway since I mostly use them against Legends cards. I usually power-down the ROH & Chikara cards to fit better with Legends anyway. Pike, I'm curious about your thinking here. Do you power them down because they seem to be better than the Legends cards or do you think they shouldn't be as good compared to the Legends?
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Post by pikemojo on Nov 6, 2014 13:36:05 GMT -5
I am down for any update that is necessary. Young Bucks under perform for me to the point I rarely use them (they shouldn't be jobbers). Sure some of it is the dice but I believe it has more to do with their cards being under powered. Cedric Alexander is another prime example of someone who needs an update. To someone who isn't into ROH, they might not see how necessary this is. As a big ROH fan, a Cedric update is a must! Maybe I would use updates but odds are I would end up using the lower powered versions anyway since I mostly use them against Legends cards. I usually power-down the ROH & Chikara cards to fit better with Legends anyway. Pike, I'm curious about your thinking here. Do you power them down because they seem to be better than the Legends cards or do you think they shouldn't be as good compared to the Legends? Sure. Some of the ROH cards seem just fine to me. Rhino, for instance, seems pretty good. I could probably get really picky but considering he has wrestled in most major organizations and has done quite well everywhere he has been, I think he's pretty good. So, many of the cards I keep right where they are. One example of a card where I power it down is Michael Elgin. Now, this is partially because I am not a HUGE fan of his but I see his card as being WAY too strong when compared to the Legends cards. Just going off of Rahl Ratings (which aren't a perfect gauge but... whatever) his two cards have him at a 30 (33) and a 51 (52). The first card isn't SO bad but that puts him roughly at the level of all time greats like Greg Valentine, Jim Londos, Rick Rude, DDP and above people like Curt Hennig, Evan "Strangler" Lewis and LOW cards for Claudio Castagnoli and Nigel McGuinness. I'm sure some would argue that he is where he should be but to me, this is a guy who has his highest level of success in the current #3 organization and only held their world title for 3 months. I would think that would put him at the level of some of the low/mid level ECW champs that didn't see high levels of success outside ECW. So, I would put him at about Justin Credible or Jerry Lynn's level. Then the updated championship card was released and powered him up to the level of only the very top top guys in LOW. I fully understand that it was made to represent his spot in ROH at that time, and that is fine, it just doesn't fit with LOW the way I see that it should. So, that is my mindset on that. Since everything I do with my feds revolves around the LOW stars, I "edit" the indy cards (when necessary) to do so as well. I've used the cards for ACH and Tadarius Thomas and a few others in my cruiserweight divisions and haven't edited them at all. This isn't meant as any sort of slam on the ROH sets. They seem to fit together within their own "universe" very well and that is what they are designed to do.
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Post by Tournament Master on Nov 6, 2014 14:16:27 GMT -5
I think we need a set of Young Bucks cards where Level 2 Offense is all just Superkicks.
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Post by aceldamas on Nov 6, 2014 14:36:57 GMT -5
Sure. Some of the ROH cards seem just fine to me. Rhino, for instance, seems pretty good. I could probably get really picky but considering he has wrestled in most major organizations and has done quite well everywhere he has been, I think he's pretty good. So, many of the cards I keep right where they are. One example of a card where I power it down is Michael Elgin. Now, this is partially because I am not a HUGE fan of his but I see his card as being WAY too strong when compared to the Legends cards. Just going off of Rahl Ratings (which aren't a perfect gauge but... whatever) his two cards have him at a 30 (33) and a 51 (52). The first card isn't SO bad but that puts him roughly at the level of all time greats like Greg Valentine, Jim Londos, Rick Rude, DDP and above people like Curt Hennig, Evan "Strangler" Lewis and LOW cards for Claudio Castagnoli and Nigel McGuinness. I'm sure some would argue that he is where he should be but to me, this is a guy who has his highest level of success in the current #3 organization and only held their world title for 3 months. I would think that would put him at the level of some of the low/mid level ECW champs that didn't see high levels of success outside ECW. So, I would put him at about Justin Credible or Jerry Lynn's level. Then the updated championship card was released and powered him up to the level of only the very top top guys in LOW. I fully understand that it was made to represent his spot in ROH at that time, and that is fine, it just doesn't fit with LOW the way I see that it should. So, that is my mindset on that. Since everything I do with my feds revolves around the LOW stars, I "edit" the indy cards (when necessary) to do so as well. I've used the cards for ACH and Tadarius Thomas and a few others in my cruiserweight divisions and haven't edited them at all. This isn't meant as any sort of slam on the ROH sets. They seem to fit together within their own "universe" very well and that is what they are designed to do. Okay. I get where you are coming from, though I don't necessarily agree on all points. It's kind of weird looking at something that is pre-determined and trying to judge who is better, especially if it spans generations. If you base it off of pure success in the business, then that falls a large degree on how they were booked and promoted. If you do it by skill, then I would have to argue that guys like Elgin or Steen could hang with a Harley Race back in the day. (I'm sure I'll catch hell for that statement ). You could even say that some of today's more athletic stars completely outshine some of the old-school wrasslers. And If John Cena were in the game his Rahl rating would have to be 100, right? In no way am I saying you are wrong. I think this could be debated until the cows come home. Now as far as the game goes, I wish there was more consistency mechanics-wise across brands/eras. It's hard. I don't know if statting cards can be done that way. There are plenty of stats I don't really agree with (EVOLVE are maybe too powerful in relation to other brands or SHIMMER are not diverse enough power-wise within their own brand). But they are what they are. However, I do gripe about one thing in regards to this. Not only do I think the original CZW cards are hugely under powered but CZW set 2 comes out and they are all better (we're talking RAHL ratings here but results as well) than the the original, and most would agree, better wrestlers. I mean Kimber Lee has better stats than MASADA! Sometimes it just seems that the designers aren't always on the same page. Not bitching here, everyone's efforts are appreciated. Just putting some observations out there for discussion.
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Post by pikemojo on Nov 6, 2014 15:09:32 GMT -5
Sure. Some of the ROH cards seem just fine to me. Rhino, for instance, seems pretty good. I could probably get really picky but considering he has wrestled in most major organizations and has done quite well everywhere he has been, I think he's pretty good. So, many of the cards I keep right where they are. One example of a card where I power it down is Michael Elgin. Now, this is partially because I am not a HUGE fan of his but I see his card as being WAY too strong when compared to the Legends cards. Just going off of Rahl Ratings (which aren't a perfect gauge but... whatever) his two cards have him at a 30 (33) and a 51 (52). The first card isn't SO bad but that puts him roughly at the level of all time greats like Greg Valentine, Jim Londos, Rick Rude, DDP and above people like Curt Hennig, Evan "Strangler" Lewis and LOW cards for Claudio Castagnoli and Nigel McGuinness. I'm sure some would argue that he is where he should be but to me, this is a guy who has his highest level of success in the current #3 organization and only held their world title for 3 months. I would think that would put him at the level of some of the low/mid level ECW champs that didn't see high levels of success outside ECW. So, I would put him at about Justin Credible or Jerry Lynn's level. Then the updated championship card was released and powered him up to the level of only the very top top guys in LOW. I fully understand that it was made to represent his spot in ROH at that time, and that is fine, it just doesn't fit with LOW the way I see that it should. So, that is my mindset on that. Since everything I do with my feds revolves around the LOW stars, I "edit" the indy cards (when necessary) to do so as well. I've used the cards for ACH and Tadarius Thomas and a few others in my cruiserweight divisions and haven't edited them at all. This isn't meant as any sort of slam on the ROH sets. They seem to fit together within their own "universe" very well and that is what they are designed to do. Okay. I get where you are coming from, though I don't necessarily agree on all points. It's kind of weird looking at something that is pre-determined and trying to judge who is better, especially if it spans generations. If you base it off of pure success in the business, then that falls a large degree on how they were booked and promoted. If you do it by skill, then I would have to argue that guys like Elgin or Steen could hang with a Harley Race back in the day. (I'm sure I'll catch hell for that statement ). You could even say that some of today's more athletic stars completely outshine some of the old-school wrasslers. And If John Cena were in the game his Rahl rating would have to be 100, right? In no way am I saying you are wrong. I think this could be debated until the cows come home. Now as far as the game goes, I wish there was more consistency mechanics-wise across brands/eras. It's hard. I don't know if statting cards can be done that way. There are plenty of stats I don't really agree with (EVOLVE are maybe too powerful in relation to other brands or SHIMMER are not diverse enough power-wise within their own brand). But they are what they are. However, I do gripe about one thing in regards to this. Not only do I think the original CZW cards are hugely under powered but CZW set 2 comes out and they are all better (we're talking RAHL ratings here but results as well) than the the original, and most would agree, better wrestlers. I mean Kimber Lee has better stats than MASADA! Sometimes it just seems that the designers aren't always on the same page. Not bitching here, everyone's efforts are appreciated. Just putting some observations out there for discussion. I saw that too with the CZW cards. I'm not a HUGE CZW guy so it doesn't hit me the way it would hit CZW true believers. I personally think the stats HAVE to be based on success in the business. You can't base things on perceived skill or athleticism. This isn't a true sport so the only thing we have to go off of should be things like titles won, card position, time in the business, etc. Honestly, if we went purely on skill, guys like Frank Gotch and Dan Severn would be at the very top. They could legit beat just about everyone else in the game. Going based on success, I would say that someone like John Cena would be very high but not 100 or anything crazy. The LOW game has to be looking at the last 100+ years of wrestling history and the impact that each individual legend made at that time and through all time. John Cena has certainly been THE top star for the past decade or so but he is no where near as popular as people like Jim Londos or Rikidozan were in their hay days. So, to me, I would have John Cena as one of the best cards in the game but NOT unbeatable by any means. Regardless, promoters can do as they wish to upgrade or downgrade cards to fit where they really feel the cards should fall.
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