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Post by Swarm on Aug 31, 2016 14:21:17 GMT -5
RoH seems to be making a lot of bad choices recently. This, jobbing endlessly to the NJPW talent and pushing the Women of Honor all come to mind. Yes ROH talent jobs so endlessly to NJPW talent that the Briscoe Brothers are currently the IGWP tag team champions. Also at the last show Adam Cole defeated both Naito and Tanahashi to defend the ROH World Title and Kyle O'Reilly defeated Shibata. Oh and Bobby Fish successfully defended the TV title against EVIL and won that title FROM one of those NJPW talents that you claim never lose to ROH guys. Not to mention all the times Jay Lethal successfully defended against New Japan guys when he was World Champion AND during his TV title reign as well. Wasn't always like that, but it has been lately. Which is HUGE for ROH wrestlers, considering NJPW is more like WWE than ROH by comparison. I'm loving everything NJPW is doing this year. The G1 tournament last year got me interested in the them, and this years G1 sold me on the fed. I watch every Friday night now. Can't say the same about other feds. |
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Post by amazingbadger on Aug 31, 2016 14:28:33 GMT -5
Yes ROH talent jobs so endlessly to NJPW talent that the Briscoe Brothers are currently the IGWP tag team champions. Also at the last show Adam Cole defeated both Naito and Tanahashi to defend the ROH World Title and Kyle O'Reilly defeated Shibata. Oh and Bobby Fish successfully defended the TV title against EVIL and won that title FROM one of those NJPW talents that you claim never lose to ROH guys. Not to mention all the times Jay Lethal successfully defended against New Japan guys when he was World Champion AND during his TV title reign as well. Wasn't always like that, but it has been lately. Which is HUGE for ROH wrestlers, considering NJPW is more like WWE than ROH by comparison. I'm loving everything NJPW is doing this year. The G1 tournament last year got me interested in the them, and this years G1 sold me on the fed. I watch every Friday night now. Can't say the same about other feds. Well that is true Swarm. I don't feel it was as bad as some people like to claim however since NJWP teams would come to ROH to challenge for the tag titles fairly often but they rarely, if ever, won and even when they did those title reigns never lasted long. Ishii was pretty much the first IWGP wrestler to have a title reign of any length at all in ROH, if I'm not mistaken. |
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Post by Swarm on Aug 31, 2016 14:39:44 GMT -5
Wasn't always like that, but it has been lately. Which is HUGE for ROH wrestlers, considering NJPW is more like WWE than ROH by comparison. I'm loving everything NJPW is doing this year. The G1 tournament last year got me interested in the them, and this years G1 sold me on the fed. I watch every Friday night now. Can't say the same about other feds. Well that is true Swarm. I don't feel it was as bad as some people like to claim however since NJWP teams would come to ROH to challenge for the tag titles fairly often but they rarely, if ever, won and even when they did those title reigns never lasted long. Ishii was pretty much the first IWGP wrestler to have a title reign of any length at all in ROH, if I'm not mistaken. I don't think it was bad at all. ROH guys were losing to NJPW guys at first for the same reason Shinsuke Nakamura is unbeaten in NXT. Guys like Omega, Tanahashi, Naito, Okada, and Goto are huge stars. They shouldn't be jobbing out to ROH guys before anyone gets to know who they are. I'm pretty sure that's what TNA did when they had guys like Okada. |
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Post by amazingbadger on Aug 31, 2016 14:54:11 GMT -5
Well that is true Swarm. I don't feel it was as bad as some people like to claim however since NJWP teams would come to ROH to challenge for the tag titles fairly often but they rarely, if ever, won and even when they did those title reigns never lasted long. Ishii was pretty much the first IWGP wrestler to have a title reign of any length at all in ROH, if I'm not mistaken. I don't think it was bad at all. ROH guys were losing to NJPW guys at first for the same reason Shinsuke Nakamura is unbeaten in NXT. Guys like Omega, Tanahashi, Naito, Okada, and Goto are huge stars. They shouldn't be jobbing out to ROH guys before anyone gets to know who they are. I'm pretty sure that's what TNA did when they had guys like Okada. Actually I think Okada was pretty much a non-entity when he was in TNA but your point is well made, regardless. I'd also point out that in many of those cases the matches were uppercard IWGP guys facing ROH midcarders, so there was no reason to expect them to go over in the first place and thus no reason to be butthurt over it. Especially since those New Japan uppercarders were losing when booked against ROH champions, with Ishii beating Strong for the TV title being the exception. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2016 16:01:43 GMT -5
RoH seems to be making a lot of bad choices recently. This, jobbing endlessly to the NJPW talent and pushing the Women of Honor all come to mind. Yes ROH talent jobs so endlessly to NJPW talent that the Briscoe Brothers are currently the IGWP tag team champions. Also at the last show Adam Cole defeated both Naito and Tanahashi to defend the ROH World Title and Kyle O'Reilly defeated Shibata. Oh and Bobby Fish successfully defended the TV title against EVIL and won that title FROM one of those NJPW talents that you claim never lose to ROH guys. Not to mention all the times Jay Lethal successfully defended against New Japan guys when he was World Champion AND during his TV title reign as well. I wouldn't tout the Briscoes tag title reign as being a sign that the agreement isn't lopsided in New Japan's favor. The IWGP Tag Titles haven't meant anything in a long time and are probably the only title that means less than the Junior Tag Titles, plus the majority of the guys in that particular division are guys who aren't going to really beat anyone of consequence anyways. Plenty of guys who work for ROH have held the IWGP Jr. Tag Titles, it doesn't really mean anything when the division is mostly useless and the crowds treat it that way. re: the rest - Cole beat Lethal, not Naito or Tanahashi so to say he beat both of them like he pinned them is wrong. If you're not pinned, you're not beaten. That's the reason you never see the top stars losing in ROH. It's always someone else. That's the problem here, because ROH has let their top guys get jobbed out to New Japan and it's never been returned. I understand why because this is how New Japan vs. smaller companies always works, but up until just recently even the kind-of pushed guys never really look serious losses. With Shibata doing international dates, they found a name who isn't a top guy who they could add to the list of guys like Ishii, EVIL, Goto, Liger, etc. who can lose to the ROH guys but find me an instance of Okada or Tanahashi taking a pinfall in ROH. That's only part of the problem, though. The NJ guys are on most of the TV tapings and PPVs now, so when the top guys never lose and the ROH guys are offered up to them, it makes ROH look like they're second-tier. Obviously if you're New Japan you want to protect your top guys, ROH has had these guys for tours when they didn't hold titles. You mean to tell me a guy like Okada can't lose a match when he's not champion, return when he is and avenge the loss in a title match that would help sell a Pay-Per-View? Come on now. In terms of Lethal's title defenses vs. New Japan guys, you have: - Watanabe/EVIL when he was still on a learning excursion - Jushin Liger who isn't going to beat any top names anywhere anymore - Tetsuya Naito which is the only really big win on this list in terms of beating someone ranked higher than him in New Japan - Tomoaki Honma who is an undercard job guy - Satoshi Kojima who is a legend kept to the undercard now It's not like he was knocking off main eventers. Even Naito in May of last year was still beneath the main event, basically in the same spot Shibata is now. Also the promotion isn't called IWGP. That's the name for the fictional governing body like how All Japan has the PWF and NOAH has the GHC. I'm pretty sure that's what TNA did when they had guys like Okada. If I remember correctly, TNA used Tanahashi as an X-Division guy and Nakamura only had a match on Xplosion. Okada wasn't sent there as a star like he is with ROH, he was sent on a learning excursion so he was just kind of a fly on the wall type playing Joe's sidekick for a little while. |
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Post by amazingbadger on Aug 31, 2016 16:35:13 GMT -5
Cole was in a match with Jay Lethal, Naito and Tanahashi. Cole won the match, ergo he defeated all three men. To say otherwise is merely twisting the facts to suit your argument.
As for your other argument. EVIL's learning excursion was done by this point, as evidenced by him returning to New Japan to wrestle and being part of New Japan's top stables: Los Ingobernables de Japan. He'd also gotten a victory over Ishii as well, so he was far from an underneath guy.
Jushin Liger. Japanese legend.
Tetsuya Naito. Leader of Los Ingobernables des Japan and one of the top guys in New Japan.
Tomoaki Honma. The only low card guy on the list.
Satishi Kojima. Japanese legend.
Seems a pretty decent line up to me, given that Naito is a main eventer in New Japan and wins over Liger and Kojima are still considered a big deal there. Good job ignoring my points regarding O'Reilly beating Shibata by the way.
So in summary, the myth that ROH guys are being treated poorly by New Japan is just that, a myth.
Oh I forgot to mention, when O'Reilly defeated Shibata on the ROH show previously mentioned, Shibata was the NEVER Openweight Champion. So not only is Shibata NOT an "underneath" guy he's a friggin champion in New Japan!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2016 17:05:05 GMT -5
Cole was in a match with Jay Lethal, Naito and Tanahashi. Cole won the match, ergo he defeated all three men. To say otherwise is merely twisting the facts to suit your argument. Kinda like acting like he beat both of those guys outright. He pinned Lethal. Naito and Tanahashi weren't pinned, meaning they didn't get beat. That's the exact reason New Japan let the match happen, because ROH wasn't going to beat two of the top guys. As for your other argument. EVIL's learning excursion was done by this point, as evidenced by him returning to New Japan to wrestle and being part of New Japan's top stables: Los Ingobernables de Japan. Lethal's TV Title defense vs. Watanabe was in September 2015. Watanabe wasn't EVIL yet and hadn't returned to New Japan. He'd also gotten a victory over Ishii as well, so he was far from an underneath guy. Find me one time EVIL/Watanabe has ever beaten Ishii in a singles match, or a match of any actual importance. Jushin Liger. Japanese legend. A legend in the juniors division who hasn't been anyone's idea of a top card wrestler in at least a decade and has also lost to guys like Chase Owens. In terms of name value he's the biggest name on the list but in terms of beating a guy who's actually above him? Give me a break. Tetsuya Naito. Leader of Los Ingobernables des Japan and one of the top guys in New Japan. Lethal defended against Naito in May 2015, before Naito started to really switch heel, months before he had anyone else in his stable and nearly a year before Naito became a legitimate top guy. Nice try. Tomoaki Honma. The only low card guy on the list. Liger is a low card guy and trying to pretend he isn't is insane. Satishi Kojima. Japanese legend. And just like with most legends in Japanese wrestling, he has been moved down the card and into tag matches mostly. Name value is only part of the story, he didn't actually beat someone on the same level as him in terms of where he's placed on the cards. Seems a pretty decent line up to me, given that Naito is a main eventer in New Japan and wins over Liger and Kojima are still considered a big deal there. Naito wasn't a main eventer when Lethal defended the TV Title against him. Liger and Kojima are guys that can do jobs because they've moved down the card and the match still has appeal because they're legends, it's not like he beat 1995 Liger or 2004 Kojima in the sense that he really got a huge win over a top star. Watanabe was still on an excursion and Honma is a jobber. It's not like he went in and took the scalps of actual top guys. Good job ignoring my points regarding O'Reilly beating Shibata by the way. I actually didn't. I mentioned that he's one of the guys on the list that would lose matches. COh I forgot to mention, when O'Reilly defeated Shibata on the ROH show previously mentioned, Shibata was the NEVER Openweight Champion. So not only is Shibata NOT an "underneath" guy he's a friggin champion in New Japan! You do realize that the NEVER Title isn't exactly a main event level title, right? Not that KOR beating Shibata isn't a big deal because Shibata's a name, he didn't exactly beat the friggin' Heavyweight Champion. Also, find me where I said Shibata was an underneath guy. I said So in summary, the myth that ROH guys are being treated poorly by New Japan is just that, a myth. Except they are portrayed as being second-class, even the top ROH guys, and that's a problem for ROH after the relationship ends unless something seriously changes and maybe it will. EDIT: Looking at it, I only called Kojima and Honma undercard guys....and that's because they ARE undercard guys. Kojima isn't a main eventer anymore. FYI he defended against KUSHIDA as well but that was before KUSHIDA's first Jr. Title win and well before he was established as the new junior ace. |
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Post by maddog1981 on Aug 31, 2016 17:27:26 GMT -5
This may or may not be the exact statement that lead to these titles being created: "Hey, New Japan did this thing and it was a really stupid idea. We should do it too!" Also, I'm amazed that ROH works with New Japan and threw out that bullshit line about a tournament for those NEVER Six Man Tag Titles. They booked a random six man tag at the Dome and created a set of useless belts to have the match for. Good grief. RoH seems to be making a lot of bad choices recently. This, jobbing endlessly to the NJPW talent and pushing the Women of Honor all come to mind. WOH wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't a half-hearted attempt to showcase women's wrestling that revolves around the booker's girlfriend who has the personality of a blank cereal box and the in ring ability of the WWE Divas division circa 2007. Now, let's not get crazy and and say something we can't take back. At least with the blank cereal box you could in theory draw something interesting on it. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2016 17:31:54 GMT -5
This may or may not be the exact statement that lead to these titles being created: "Hey, New Japan did this thing and it was a really stupid idea. We should do it too!" Also, I'm amazed that ROH works with New Japan and threw out that bullshit line about a tournament for those NEVER Six Man Tag Titles. They booked a random six man tag at the Dome and created a set of useless belts to have the match for. Good grief. WOH wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't a half-hearted attempt to showcase women's wrestling that revolves around the booker's girlfriend who has the personality of a blank cereal box and the in ring ability of the WWE Divas division circa 2007. Now, let's not get crazy and and say something we can't take back. At least with the blank cereal box you could in theory draw something interesting on it. yeah but if you put a bunch of stuff on it to cover that up, it's still a blank cardboard box underneath wow that actually works on multiple levels regarding mandy leon |
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Post by maddog1981 on Aug 31, 2016 17:33:27 GMT -5
The sad thing is I had to actually think and decide if you were talking about Kelly Kline or Mandy Leon.
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