Evolve 5

[Deleted]

Apr 18, 2018 9:43:52 GMT -5 Vegas said:

Apr 18, 2018 9:16:22 GMT -5 @kernodle said:

Jon Gresham getting a ridiculously overpowered card that should have never, ever made it to print with those stats.

I respectfully disagree. Jonathan Gresham has a CZW card that was released in 2016 when he was CZW Heavyweight Champion. The card release happened to coincide with the high point of his career, no way of knowing at that time his reign would be short (especially since he was on fire in CZW that year where he had also won Best of the Best 15.) I do agree that a Jonathan Gresham ROH card would definitely not be as strong, but that CZW card strength I do defend based on the context of the time it was released.

That card was on par with, if not better than, the ROH World Champion Bryan Danielson card. Gresham in 2016 was in no way, shape or form anywhere near that level and there's no possible argument you can make for that.

Also, regarding the line "no way of knowing at that time his reign would be short". Then maybe leave a little wiggle room with the first card so if he doesn't have a long run you don't wind up with a card that beats several legitimate legends' all time great cards and that way if he has a dominant reign you can go back and update him? There is a happy medium between "this guy just won the title let's give him a bump" and giving someone a ridiculously overpowered card because they just won the title. Elgin's Champion card in 2014 was that exact same lesson.

CZW gets one set a year, Promoter Prime exists. You can do updates easily. You don't need to give someone a friggin' Super Saiyan God card just because they won a title---especially if they JUST won a title and you don't have an idea of how their reign is going to play out.

I only want this stuff to be as good as it possibly can be because I'm a fan and I like this game and everyone who works on it but come on.

[Tournament Master]

I personally like the way the set came out and am fine with the multiple finishers, as it fits the style of indie wrestling today. And the cards are compensated for in other ways to limit power creep.

I understand the concern with Gresham, he was a bit too strong and I'm sure we will have another Gresham card at one point.

[TTX]

One of the trickiest things when we stat out cards is getting that balance. As for finishers especially on the indy cards....guys will win with stuff all the time that's not their finisher (and have their finisher countered multiple times as well) so it can be tricky to decide...is that a finisher or a level 3 move he's covering for a pin. (In fact I've used moves that wrestlers have covered though not won as level 2 moves) When I did Private Eye...the only match I found him getting a pin...was with a move that was not his finisher...so it's a challenge.

So I'm also good with multiple finishers/charts even though I use them less than Vegas but the cards I usually do rarely warrant them.

[Sam Fain]

I'm really looking forward to this set. Hope to find it in the mailbox this afternoon. I'm not always a huge fan of multiple finishers, in fact, I prefer the roll for finish option more often than not. The new match looks great, by the way! Thanks Vegas

@kernodle You are absolutely entitled to you opinions, but I wanted to say a couple of things. First, intergender wrestling is a thing. It's happening. It will keep happening. And I think it's a valid genre within the medium of professional wrestling. It neither invalidates or waters down any other genre of the medium. One could argue, why is there an issue with one of the most talented female performers in North America going toe-to-toe with Brian Cage, but we have no problem with Rey Mysterio taking out Big Show, Mark Henry, Kevin Nash, or Batista? I'm a passionate lover of the business for 30+ years. I try to watch everything. Last night I enjoyed the hell out of Andre/Inoki from 1974, but Friday I saw Joey Ryan take on Saraya Knight live and got a kick out of that, too. Naturally, it was no where near the match the former was, but it was still a hell of a lot of fun. Of course, to each their own, and I see little point in arguing further in a thread that is about the EVOLVE 5 set. More than happy to continue the discussion, but again, if we're talking intergender, maybe we should move it to the real world wrestling part of the forum.

As for Jonathan Gresham's card... Is it too strong for 2018 Gresham, yeah... But it is in no way anywhere near "better" than Bryan Danielson's ROH card. He's got 3 down-3s on L3 Def! Sure one of them has a chance of a super-powered reversal, but still. Additionally, the chart ratings, the power & agility ratings, the choice chart possibilities all make Gresham's card decidedly not as good as Danielson's. Sure, he can probably get a win on Bryan, but it's a dice game, there's always going to be chance involved. Executioner was one of my very first GWF champs back in the day. That's crazy, but it happens.

So while I appreciate you voicing your opinions, I think in that case, it's simply not true that the Gresham card is on par with or better than the Bryan Danielson ROH card.

Not trying to be combative or provoke any sort of nasty conversations, but I'm all for healthy debate about the medium I love.

[Deleted]

Apr 18, 2018 11:52:39 GMT -5 Sam Fain said:

One could argue, why is there an issue with one of the most talented female performers in North America going toe-to-toe with Brian Cage, but we have no problem with Rey Mysterio taking out Big Show, Mark Henry, Kevin Nash, or Batista?

Well Rey didn't lift any of those guys, for starters. He wasn't portrayed as being as strong as those guys, he had to use his speed and different style of wrestling to even have a chance against them whereas Tessa was doing the same stuff to Cage that she does to everyone else. That's the difference. It's really not hard to figure out.

[MHardcore]

I think Rey beating Batista or Big Show is equally as stupid as Tessa Blanchard (or whoever) versus Brian Cage. I also think Rey was much more talented than either of those guys. Without the help of a baseball bat or an armada, it just doesn’t make sense.

[Vegas]

Apr 18, 2018 9:56:00 GMT -5 @kernodle said:

Apr 18, 2018 9:43:52 GMT -5 Vegas said:

I respectfully disagree. Jonathan Gresham has a CZW card that was released in 2016 when he was CZW Heavyweight Champion. The card release happened to coincide with the high point of his career, no way of knowing at that time his reign would be short (especially since he was on fire in CZW that year where he had also won Best of the Best 15.) I do agree that a Jonathan Gresham ROH card would definitely not be as strong, but that CZW card strength I do defend based on the context of the time it was released.

That card was on par with, if not better than, the ROH World Champion Bryan Danielson card. Gresham in 2016 was in no way, shape or form anywhere near that level and there's no possible argument you can make for that.

Gresham's card is not as strong or better than Danielson's ROH color card.

[Vegas]

Apr 18, 2018 11:52:39 GMT -5 Sam Fain said:

The new match looks great, by the way! Thanks Vegas

Thank you! I like the match too, alot of the ideas I had for it were it is based on Matt Riddle's No Rope Break match at EVOLVE 103.

My cards unfortunately did not arrive today, hopefully tomorrow.

[executioner]

Apr 18, 2018 9:16:22 GMT -5 @kernodle said:

There are some really puzzling things happening between this stuff and Jon Gresham getting a ridiculously overpowered card that should have never, ever made it to print with those stats. I'm not saying the cards or bad or that anyone is doing a bad job, people work hard on this stuff, but it gets to a point where things are really excessive and it leads to a power creep and I don't want things to go much further in this direction.

The best statement in this thread.

[riffdog]

Apr 19, 2018 9:54:43 GMT -5 executioner said:

Apr 18, 2018 9:16:22 GMT -5 @kernodle said:

There are some really puzzling things happening between this stuff and Jon Gresham getting a ridiculously overpowered card that should have never, ever made it to print with those stats. I'm not saying the cards or bad or that anyone is doing a bad job, people work hard on this stuff, but it gets to a point where things are really excessive and it leads to a power creep and I don't want things to go much further in this direction.

The best statement in this thread.

That Gresham card is a perfect representation of him in CZW at the time of the sets release. Which seems appropriate since it was released in a CZW set.