Post by jefft on Feb 4, 2008 10:51:38 GMT -5
*Note: Not sure if this thread should go here or maybe in Misc. Mod move at your pleasure.*
Feel free to politely agree or disagree on what I say here, I'm no expert, just your basic fan who's played off and on since about '88 - '90. If it gets enough interest, I'll probably keep it going. Also, please feel free to make your own comparison's if you like. I can't be the only one who has a strange fascination with breaking down these cards, can I?
[glow=blue,3,300]SW 87 v. SW 90[/glow]
As officially written, 2090 is the year that 'supposedly' the #1 face in the business achieves his ultimate potential. So the important factor here is that his 2090 card should be an upgrade over his 2087 card, right? But did this actually happen? Let's take a look:
L1O: HtH - VERY slight edge to '90. Overall - edge to '87. Basically similar movset. They each have a ch attack but due to '90 having the better Turnbuckle rating. '90 gains a similar advantage due to his 'into the turbuckle' move. They each have L3 attacks but its a (ag) move for '90. HtH this is a wash since they have the same AG. ***This made me stop and think though. Sure HtH is much simpler and feasible, however this is basically the same character. These guys would never actually compete with each other and the ultimate goal for this comparison was to figure out if '90 was really a better wrestler. For example, just using their L1O at this point, '87 would fair better against a complete roster because -4 AG not only negates his L3 but turns it into L2. This can be a huge turnaround in most matches. The Matador of M83 actually comes to mind here as a more agile wrestler with superstar level talent meaning they'd cross paths many times. I think I'll thrown in something about how each would fair overall, too.
***
L1D: Clear Ad to '90 for HtH and overall. The difference being the much preferred L2 reversal against a 'dazed-1'.
L2O: Ad to '90 HtH and overall. In HtH - Big Ad to '90 with 3 clean L3 attacks. '87 only has two clean ones and the others don't factor. Overall still goes '90, but 87 edges slightly closer because his excellent combined AG and PW makes his ch move a lot more effective against the rest of the field than it does HtH against '90. '87 takes a very minor hit since he has (ag), but only a few could actually reverse it.
L2D: Completely even. Both have the exact same moves, just different placement (which is not a factor IMO)
L3O: HtH - Slight edge to '87. Overall - even. Only 2 moves for each matter here. '87 has a clean L2 attack against a deathjump for '90. '87 has an 'A' rating there making it a bit unwise to try. I call that a wash. So the finishers...tough decision that I'm still really not positive I'm right with. Personally, I feel that a single (+3) is a 'winning' finisher. Meaning that no matter how bad your other stats are, you've really got a move that everyone should fear. It's a solid finisher that can beat PIN (4) or higher on the first try better than 50% of the time. '90 gave us our very first roll finisher mechanic (I think?). The possibility of getting that big (+6) looks very impressive. On its own, that should scare even big ole Mr. PIN 3(0) himself - Monolith. Well, so we don't get too complicated lets just fall back on basic odds. Since the mechanic is different, basic percentages do actually apply in this case I think. You have about a 17% of hitting a certain number. So about a third of the time '90 gets a dominant finisher of (+5) or (+6), 50% its basically a wash, but 17% he not only gets nothing, he gets a total reversal of fortune with a L3 reversal. I decided it came down 33% chance to hit a match winning move against only a 17% of having things REALLY turned against. Weighing the positives and negatives there, I decided it was equal to a +3 finisher. *I had actually decided call it a complete wash here, but then the wheels started turning again. * Getting really deep into it, the possibility that I might put '87 on L3O is a lot bigger risk than it would be against most other guys. Thus making me lean slightly over to '87.
L3D: Clear edge to '87 HtH and overall. Simply put, an extra bonus on your pin just doesn't stand up to an extra down-3 in my opinion. Even a couple pts advantange in your pin doesn't help as much having that extra chance to keep your on your heels and wearing you down.
Skill Ratings: Two theories here. Any idiot can easily match up all 4 ratings and figure a winner and loser. They have the exact same ratings with '87's only 'B' at Ropes and '90 with Deathjump. Just looking at ratings, I have to say Deathjump is a slightly more important than Ropes - Slight edge to '87 just on ratings alone. HOWEVER, ratings are essentially counted for as I reviewed all the moves already and they only come into based on those moves. Meaning, I've already factored in Skill ratings...at least on HtH. Overall - its probably easier to go back to just the ratings, but now I'd make it a wash because while I think Deathjump is more important (match-changing) stat than Ropes, I'm fairly sure the most guys have a ropes move but deathjump isn't as common.
AG/PW: Same theory as above applies here. Stats alone they are dead even. Using the card as a whole I've actually already made the comparison HtH. Overall - again, exact same numbers. I think I already made those comparisons, too.
DQ/Cage: Even stats again. Any moves affecting dq or cage rating are basically the same also.
[glow=red,2,300]Everybody still awake? ļ[/glow] ;D
FINAL DECISION HEAD-TO-HEAD: Even. Yeah, a bit of a copout maybe. However, if ¡¦90 is really supposed to be an upgrade maybe I should get a bit of a nod for it. L2O is most important but ¡¥90s big AD here in HtH is cancelled by ¡¦87s L3D AD. ¡¦90 has control of both L1 sections, but ¡¦87 gets a slight edge at L3O and this helped because I happen to feel that the L3 sections are more important than the L1 sections.
FINAL DECISION AGAINST THE FIELD: Slight edge SW90. Against the majority of other GWF wrestlers, I think SW90¡¦s L2O excellent offense and the lessened risk of the roll finisher would be effective. Having said that, let me point out that this decision could also be an even call when up against other top echelon wrestlers. If you miss COSMIC BIG BANG against Iron Mane (pretty decent overall fighter, solid PIN 3) you still have a fair chance to win, but you miss against, say, Chaos ¡V you¡¦re probably done. As I believe I mentioned above, since these are different versions of the same guy, they should never really fight except in a very rare Kronus-like matchup. Therefore, this decision is probably the best way to compare the two version and that means that, yeah, SW90 is probably an upgrade ¡V BARELY.
*Bonus Coverage*
Card art comparison: '87 easy. Actually, 2087 is probably one of Carter's top 3 pieces from my point of view which barely qualifies it as 'ok' when compared against all other COTG character illustrations
Does it actually factor into the stated debate? Obviously not. However, I enjoy comparing card art also, so I'll briefly comment. Both SW pieces are drawn by Carter so they basically suck overall. However, I do consider both SW drawings to be some of Carter's better efforts. '87 actually has correct anatomy (no unusually long necks or different size hands which are his most rampant technical mistakes), lines are mostly clean, as usual though the outfit is very basic and unoriginal, but it works. He has the usual 'Carter Head' (some of this I attribute to style, but I can't understand how heads that give the impression that futuristic wrestlers seem to take special steroids that only work on their skull and facial structures is in any way appealing), but its not as grossly overexaggerated as most of his stuff. '90 has a much spiffier, superheroesque outfit and its probably one of the best 'costumes' for Carter (but that might not saying much, as I'm not a fan of most of his 'ring attire' either). This is probably the only area where its better than '87 though. As with most of his art during this time, he seemed to be changing into a rougher, almost 'sketch' style. Frankly, thats the optimistic view. In actuality, it just gives the outward appearance that he's caring less and less about this silly wrestling card gig he's got. I'l stop now before I subject everybody to one of my anti-Carter tirades.
Hope ya enjoyed it all.
Feel free to politely agree or disagree on what I say here, I'm no expert, just your basic fan who's played off and on since about '88 - '90. If it gets enough interest, I'll probably keep it going. Also, please feel free to make your own comparison's if you like. I can't be the only one who has a strange fascination with breaking down these cards, can I?
[glow=blue,3,300]SW 87 v. SW 90[/glow]
As officially written, 2090 is the year that 'supposedly' the #1 face in the business achieves his ultimate potential. So the important factor here is that his 2090 card should be an upgrade over his 2087 card, right? But did this actually happen? Let's take a look:
L1O: HtH - VERY slight edge to '90. Overall - edge to '87. Basically similar movset. They each have a ch attack but due to '90 having the better Turnbuckle rating. '90 gains a similar advantage due to his 'into the turbuckle' move. They each have L3 attacks but its a (ag) move for '90. HtH this is a wash since they have the same AG. ***This made me stop and think though. Sure HtH is much simpler and feasible, however this is basically the same character. These guys would never actually compete with each other and the ultimate goal for this comparison was to figure out if '90 was really a better wrestler. For example, just using their L1O at this point, '87 would fair better against a complete roster because -4 AG not only negates his L3 but turns it into L2. This can be a huge turnaround in most matches. The Matador of M83 actually comes to mind here as a more agile wrestler with superstar level talent meaning they'd cross paths many times. I think I'll thrown in something about how each would fair overall, too.
***L1D: Clear Ad to '90 for HtH and overall. The difference being the much preferred L2 reversal against a 'dazed-1'.
L2O: Ad to '90 HtH and overall. In HtH - Big Ad to '90 with 3 clean L3 attacks. '87 only has two clean ones and the others don't factor. Overall still goes '90, but 87 edges slightly closer because his excellent combined AG and PW makes his ch move a lot more effective against the rest of the field than it does HtH against '90. '87 takes a very minor hit since he has (ag), but only a few could actually reverse it.
L2D: Completely even. Both have the exact same moves, just different placement (which is not a factor IMO)
L3O: HtH - Slight edge to '87. Overall - even. Only 2 moves for each matter here. '87 has a clean L2 attack against a deathjump for '90. '87 has an 'A' rating there making it a bit unwise to try. I call that a wash. So the finishers...tough decision that I'm still really not positive I'm right with. Personally, I feel that a single (+3) is a 'winning' finisher. Meaning that no matter how bad your other stats are, you've really got a move that everyone should fear. It's a solid finisher that can beat PIN (4) or higher on the first try better than 50% of the time. '90 gave us our very first roll finisher mechanic (I think?). The possibility of getting that big (+6) looks very impressive. On its own, that should scare even big ole Mr. PIN 3(0) himself - Monolith. Well, so we don't get too complicated lets just fall back on basic odds. Since the mechanic is different, basic percentages do actually apply in this case I think. You have about a 17% of hitting a certain number. So about a third of the time '90 gets a dominant finisher of (+5) or (+6), 50% its basically a wash, but 17% he not only gets nothing, he gets a total reversal of fortune with a L3 reversal. I decided it came down 33% chance to hit a match winning move against only a 17% of having things REALLY turned against. Weighing the positives and negatives there, I decided it was equal to a +3 finisher. *I had actually decided call it a complete wash here, but then the wheels started turning again. * Getting really deep into it, the possibility that I might put '87 on L3O is a lot bigger risk than it would be against most other guys. Thus making me lean slightly over to '87.
L3D: Clear edge to '87 HtH and overall. Simply put, an extra bonus on your pin just doesn't stand up to an extra down-3 in my opinion. Even a couple pts advantange in your pin doesn't help as much having that extra chance to keep your on your heels and wearing you down.
Skill Ratings: Two theories here. Any idiot can easily match up all 4 ratings and figure a winner and loser. They have the exact same ratings with '87's only 'B' at Ropes and '90 with Deathjump. Just looking at ratings, I have to say Deathjump is a slightly more important than Ropes - Slight edge to '87 just on ratings alone. HOWEVER, ratings are essentially counted for as I reviewed all the moves already and they only come into based on those moves. Meaning, I've already factored in Skill ratings...at least on HtH. Overall - its probably easier to go back to just the ratings, but now I'd make it a wash because while I think Deathjump is more important (match-changing) stat than Ropes, I'm fairly sure the most guys have a ropes move but deathjump isn't as common.
AG/PW: Same theory as above applies here. Stats alone they are dead even. Using the card as a whole I've actually already made the comparison HtH. Overall - again, exact same numbers. I think I already made those comparisons, too.
DQ/Cage: Even stats again. Any moves affecting dq or cage rating are basically the same also.
[glow=red,2,300]Everybody still awake? ļ[/glow] ;D
FINAL DECISION HEAD-TO-HEAD: Even. Yeah, a bit of a copout maybe. However, if ¡¦90 is really supposed to be an upgrade maybe I should get a bit of a nod for it. L2O is most important but ¡¥90s big AD here in HtH is cancelled by ¡¦87s L3D AD. ¡¦90 has control of both L1 sections, but ¡¦87 gets a slight edge at L3O and this helped because I happen to feel that the L3 sections are more important than the L1 sections.
FINAL DECISION AGAINST THE FIELD: Slight edge SW90. Against the majority of other GWF wrestlers, I think SW90¡¦s L2O excellent offense and the lessened risk of the roll finisher would be effective. Having said that, let me point out that this decision could also be an even call when up against other top echelon wrestlers. If you miss COSMIC BIG BANG against Iron Mane (pretty decent overall fighter, solid PIN 3) you still have a fair chance to win, but you miss against, say, Chaos ¡V you¡¦re probably done. As I believe I mentioned above, since these are different versions of the same guy, they should never really fight except in a very rare Kronus-like matchup. Therefore, this decision is probably the best way to compare the two version and that means that, yeah, SW90 is probably an upgrade ¡V BARELY.
*Bonus Coverage*
Card art comparison: '87 easy. Actually, 2087 is probably one of Carter's top 3 pieces from my point of view which barely qualifies it as 'ok' when compared against all other COTG character illustrations
Does it actually factor into the stated debate? Obviously not. However, I enjoy comparing card art also, so I'll briefly comment. Both SW pieces are drawn by Carter so they basically suck overall. However, I do consider both SW drawings to be some of Carter's better efforts. '87 actually has correct anatomy (no unusually long necks or different size hands which are his most rampant technical mistakes), lines are mostly clean, as usual though the outfit is very basic and unoriginal, but it works. He has the usual 'Carter Head' (some of this I attribute to style, but I can't understand how heads that give the impression that futuristic wrestlers seem to take special steroids that only work on their skull and facial structures is in any way appealing), but its not as grossly overexaggerated as most of his stuff. '90 has a much spiffier, superheroesque outfit and its probably one of the best 'costumes' for Carter (but that might not saying much, as I'm not a fan of most of his 'ring attire' either). This is probably the only area where its better than '87 though. As with most of his art during this time, he seemed to be changing into a rougher, almost 'sketch' style. Frankly, thats the optimistic view. In actuality, it just gives the outward appearance that he's caring less and less about this silly wrestling card gig he's got. I'l stop now before I subject everybody to one of my anti-Carter tirades.
Hope ya enjoyed it all.
