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Post by du5tin on Dec 3, 2009 22:21:57 GMT -5
I don't know if you heard, and I see it's not posted here... but Sal Hamaoui, Davey Richards and Gabe Sapolsky have started a new promotion: EVOLVE Wrestling. I believe Gabe is the head booker. I'll try to check this out when the first show airs. EVOLVE seems like it's going to be a more shoot-style ROH. They say it will be like an Americanized version of Japan's UWFi group that ran in the early 90's. Check out the website if you wish, but not a whole lot is there right now.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2009 22:34:54 GMT -5
Honestly, I like Davey Richards, I think he's a great wrestler, but this sounds so beyond awful that it's not even funny. That's just my opinion, mind you, but it just doesn't sound appealing.
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Post by jasonjaconetti on Dec 4, 2009 7:11:43 GMT -5
They have a good roster of talent, but since people know that it is a real shoot, I'm just not sure how big an audience it will garner.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2009 7:59:51 GMT -5
They have a good roster of talent, but since people know that it is a real shoot, I'm just not sure how big an audience it will garner. The roster isn't really anything special. Sure, they've got Richards (who is either good or terrible depending on who you ask, I'm generally with the former), Ibushi, Quackenbush, and Suwa. The rest of the roster isn't good at all. Again, this is just my opinion. I think Gabe should have stuck to DGUSA. Actually, I see this as an opporunity to say something about indy wrestling in general... YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED: The following is a rant on EVOLVE, the concept, and my beef with most indy wrestling fans. If you think that this post may offend you, then please don't read any further.Sure, trying to go with the "WORKED SHOOT~" style is bound to garner the ROH...fans (I use that term lightly) who come out to every show and mark for everything that happens because all the guys do is emulate 90s AJPW tapes, and it's probably going to garner attention from the UWFi/Battlarts audience who want to see something like that. Mind you, that's actually going to be a pretty big audience, some wrestling fans want to see a shoot, they just want it to be in a wrestling ring rather than a cage. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for new promotions popping up, but this one sounds like total and complete crap. In this day and age, you can't try to put a super-serious spin on pro-wrestling and be successful. You just can't. And the promotions that try (ROH) may have a loyal fan following, but for every one ROH fan, there's at least five other people who go, "People call this pro wrestling? What makes it any better than what's on TV?" Whereas people take a look at a promotion like Chikara or PWG, and they're not serious promotions by any real stretch. Those promotions are easier to watch because of this mindset, and not to mention that the ROH crowd makes me want to puke with their elitist "WE LIKE THIS SO ANYTHING ELSE ISN'T WRESTLING" attitude and chanting "THIS IS AWESOME" when the guys in the match haven't done anything in a desperate attempt to make the match seem more important than it is. If you don't know what I'm talking about, watch Joe vs. Kobashi. Better yet, if you want a better example of the ROH fans being ROH fans, watch the original Danielson/Marufuji match from Final Battle 2005 where they didn't start a chant for Maru until AFTER his name was announced. They didn't have a damn clue who he was but HEY DUDE HE'S JAPANESE LET'S CHANT FOR HIM. Them soiling themselves for KENTA the way the did only made things worse. How do you know who KENTA is, but not his tag partner? Come on, now. You don't see a crowd that's anywhere near as disgusting and embarrassing as the ROH crowd anywhere but an ROH event. Mind you, I've been to several WWE shows, I'd much rather be in with that crowd where at least I can have a good time and laugh at people than have some dude sitting next to me saying that the match we're watching is five stars and the crowd don't "get" the match and totally ruining my attempt to watch Bryan Danielson do what he does. Maybe I'm just one of those fans who doesn't "get" ROH. Maybe I'm the stupid one. I don't know, I'm probably rambling at this point. I haven't slept. I don't know. If anyone actually read that, I applaud you.
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Post by smathis on Dec 4, 2009 9:43:49 GMT -5
Cool. I like applause.
I think you have a good point regarding the ROH fans. I saw the Joe/Kobashi match. And all I can say is that Kobashi was really old and didn't have a whole lot of mobility. But I give kudos to Joe for making the match even mildly entertaining.
The chants of awesomeness (especially nowadays) are almost always premature and generally undeserved. But I think it's like that at most indy wrestling events. I went to one here in Austin about a month ago and the crowd was chanting this and that and all I could say was "competent armdrag?".
I do think your beef with ROH fans is legit. But I also think that there might be some of that beef bleeding over into ROH in general and possibly the evaluation of Evolve. I totally get how fans could turn you off of a product. It's one of the reasons why I never went fullbore Trekkie and couldn't enjoy the Grateful Dead -- even to this day. There's nothing like a True Believer, that's for sure.
But I like the style of ROH. And I think they put on some great matches from time-to-time. As far as indy wrestling goes, I'd rather watch it than, say, CZW. Or, heck, even ECW. Sure, I roll my eyes when I hear "This is Awesome" because two guys are just standing in the ring and the freaking bell hasn't even rung. But that's indy wrestling fans. Sort of like Rocky Horror fans. I guess sometimes they just like shouting something at the screen.
But they do that for DGUSA too. And PWG. And Chikara. So I'm not sure that the beef is legit against ROH, so much as indy wrestling fans in general.
As for Evolve, I don't know much about it. Gabe, much like his mentor Paul Heyman, is alternately a wonderful booker and a complete pile of feces. I think both of them are "on" more than they're off, though. And I much prefer Gabe's booking (in general) to what I've seen of WWE. Although lately I will give the WWE props for improvement. They've had some missteps. But I think they're doing better.
So, ramble to continue, I don't know what Evolve will be. I'm not sure if it's the right time to create a new wrestling promotion. ROH is kind of the elephant in the room, even still. Chikara and DGUSA are still finding their legs -- and now Evolve?
And regarding Shoot Wrestling. I think there's definitely an ignored, yet accepted, truth regarding MMA and pro wrestling. In theory, there's money to be had in pulling MMA fans into pro wrestling somehow. But that's based on untested assumptions, that even I can't twist into some semblance of opinion. The way I look at it... Buses and trains used to be big deals. Then airplanes and airports showed up. Now buses and trains are how you get around a city. Not how you get across the country.
Pro Wrestling = Buses and trains MMA = Airplanes
It seems Evolve wants to make a train or a bus that can travel as fast as an airplane. Like Japan's bullet train or something. I wish them well with that. But I'm reserving judgment until I can actually pin down what it is they think Evolve is going to be.
I'd bet hard-earned money, though. That at the first Evolve show. There will be chants. Of "This is Awesome".
Whether what is truly being chanted for is awesome or not.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2009 22:14:28 GMT -5
Cool. I like applause. I think you have a good point regarding the ROH fans. I saw the Joe/Kobashi match. And all I can say is that Kobashi was really old and didn't have a whole lot of mobility. But I give kudos to Joe for making the match even mildly entertaining. I wouldn't say it was Joe alone who made the match entertaining. It was both guys giving a decent at best effort but it came off as more important than it was because of the crowd. The last "This is awesome" chant I heard that was actually justifiable was during Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker from WrestleMania. I'd also have to guess that it's overdone at indy events as well. I'm glad someone understands my frustration with the ROH fans. (No seriously, nobody gets why I have such a huge disdain for them) I'd rather watch almost anything, KBB included, rather than CZW. PWG and Chikara fans don't act like super smark mutants to half of the extent that the ROH fans do. DGUSA fans essentially = ROH fans, so I'll give you that. I'm not really big on Gabe. He has his moments of greatness (Morishima's title reign, CZW vs. ROH, Raven vs. Punk, but you can argue the last two were kind of dropped in his lap and he ran with them), and then he has the moments where you don't get why people think he's great (Age of the Fall). I agree with everything said here. No argument from me. Again, I agree with everything here.
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Post by pikemojo on Dec 6, 2009 2:30:33 GMT -5
I personally have liked the idea of Age of the Fall. The problem I had with it was that it just seemed like it had a constantly changing roster and really, once they took Black out of Age of the Fall it lost its identity. It almost seemed like Age of the Fall was a vehicle to get Tyler Black over.
Overall I do enjoy ROH. It has been quite a long time since I have been really into current wrestling but I try to keep up with it. I have liked most everything I have seen from ROH. They aren't all 5 star matches by any stretch of the imagination but I enjoy them.
I really didn't like WWE for quite some time (I am sure it was partially because I was a big WCW fan) but for about the past year or 2 I have enjoyed it whenever I have turned it on. I like the fact that they seem to be giving more people a chance to prove themselves than maybe they were before.
I like TNA but they just always seem to be missing the mark for me.
Indy wrestling is far too expensive to keep up with and generally don't tell any sort of story. There are some fun promotions and fun personalities though.
The thing that I enjoy most about today's wrestling are still the personalities. Even if I don't watch much I can learn about the stars in WWE and I still somehow know who I do and don't like.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2009 4:15:36 GMT -5
I personally have liked the idea of Age of the Fall. The problem I had with it was that it just seemed like it had a constantly changing roster and really, once they took Black out of Age of the Fall it lost its identity. It almost seemed like Age of the Fall was a vehicle to get Tyler Black over. Oh don't get me wrong, I was HYPED when they started doing all the viral stuff for it. Gabe had what would have ended up as ROH's biggest angle ever, and he dropped the ball, kicked it down the field, and just gave up. What was supposed to be the force that would bring ROH to its knees became a total joke. I agree about it only being a vehicle to get Black over. Don't get me wrong (again), I used to like ROH. I was pretty big on them in 2004-2005, and then again in 2007 when they gave Morishima the belt. After he dropped the belt, I lost interest, and to be honest, the booking slipped after that. I generally like what I see when I turn on WWE, and recently can say the same thing about TNA. Say that first part about no story to any ROH fan. Seriously, they will poop themselves all over their keyboard because "THIS IS WRESTLING IF YOU CAN'T GET THE STORY OF THE MATCHES (they don't have one generally, but whatever) THEN GTFO MY PRO WRESTLING" This is where our opinions differ re: WWE. I can't stand a majority of the younger guys' bland, 'hey look at me I'm young, possibly roided up, and am cocky, so I must be the future' personality. What's worse is some of them (Morrison, Miz) are like that in person.
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Post by smathis on Dec 7, 2009 11:30:01 GMT -5
Oh don't get me wrong, I was HYPED when they started doing all the viral stuff for it. Gabe had what would have ended up as ROH's biggest angle ever, and he dropped the ball, kicked it down the field, and just gave up. What was supposed to be the force that would bring ROH to its knees became a total joke. I agree about it only being a vehicle to get Black over. I'm glad that was clarified. Because the build-up for AotF was pretty awesome. And their appearance with the Briscoes strung up and bleeding and such. All pretty awesome. But I agree that what should have been an angle on par with the ROH/CZW war, turned out to be nothing more than a vehicle to put Tyler Black over and get Aries and Jacobs in a love triangle with Lacey. For whatever reason, Gabe majorly dropped the ball. Age of the Fall could (and should) have been nothing short of a modern-day NWO. Instead it was a tag-team similar to an Emo version of the Freebirds.
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Post by pikemojo on Dec 9, 2009 0:38:29 GMT -5
This is where our opinions differ re: WWE. I can't stand a majority of the younger guys' bland, 'hey look at me I'm young, possibly roided up, and am cocky, so I must be the future' personality. What's worse is some of them (Morrison, Miz) are like that in person. I am not really a huge fan of Morrison or Miz but I have liked the Dynasty. Of course, I don't watch every week so maybe I would get really sick of it if I did. I am a fan of Orton even though it sounds like he is one of the biggest jerks in wrestling. Sometimes I probably like the idea without actually experiencing it enough to really judge. I have been a big fan of CM Punk since he was in ROH & TNA (I also saw him at a local show where he wrestled Austin Aries). Even though his style has changed over the years he is still a very entertaining wrestler. Now I feel like I am just rambling on so I will stop.
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