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Post by payback on Jun 16, 2012 10:49:56 GMT -5
He has not worked for WWE? Again so what. They are pretty much the dominating force these days but have been so for only a decade. There is a lot of wrestling history and WWE until the mid 80's was a regional promotion themselves. Can't believe this was actually written down. WWE only dominant for a decade? WWF/E has been the No. 1 promotion for 30+ years. And even before Vince bought the company from his dad, the wrestlers of the 50s-60s-70s always regard the WWWF that Vince Sr. ran as "the place" to be. If you made it to NY, you were the best. Sting never made it there. I think if you're the best, you have to work for the top place of employment. Sting never did that. He was a good wrestler with a very unique look and presentation, but I can't remember him putting on a 5 star match ever. His best matches were with Flair but a lot of people can say that, because Flair was so good. I'll give Sting credit for his longevity in his career and for his uniqueness as a performer but I would never consider him an icon. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2012 18:01:53 GMT -5
WWE only dominant for a decade? WWF/E has been the No. 1 promotion for 30+ years. Yep, they totally weren't getting their asses handed to them by WCW in the mid 90s. |
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Post by Pete on Jun 16, 2012 19:31:04 GMT -5
WWE only dominant for a decade? WWF/E has been the No. 1 promotion for 30+ years. Yep, they totally weren't getting their asses handed to them by WCW in the mid 90s. Even before WCW was "handing their asses to them," calling the WWF the #1 promotion from about 1991 to 1995 was a.) Like being the tallest midget. The North American wrestling business was in the toilet all the way around (or should I say "U.S. and Canada"--Mexico was on fire). b.) Untrue. At this time New Japan was the #1 promotion in the world. AAA at its peak in '92 may even have been bigger. Sting frequently wrestled in New Japan, by the way. I mean, I agree with the overall point that the WWF was one of the biggest money territories pre-expansion. But I don't agree that it's been the unquestioned #1 non-stop since then, nor do I agree that you "have" to have worked there to be an icon, anymore than Dan Marino or Charles Barkley somehow aren't icons. |
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Post by swarm on Jun 16, 2012 20:16:32 GMT -5
New Japan? AAA? No. How is that even an option? Go ask a million people what "AAA" is and I guarantee you, you will hear "insurance company" every time. You certainly would never hear "Oh, AAA? They were once arguably the top fed in wrestling." Never happen. And New Japan can't be considered the top company simply because it has zero popularity in mainstream world culture. WWF always has. And WCW beating the WWF is ratings was winning battles in a war they ultimately lost. And even then, the only reason they did is because they used the guys Vince created against him. You could even say WCW never beat WWF, only the WWF beat themselves by being too good at creating starts, then losing them to Turner. After all, if WWF didn't make those guys stars, WCW would have had no one to use against them. Only thanks to Vince were they able to even tread water, until of course they ran out of idea what to do with his characters. In short, than run just further proves WWF has always been king. Of course Sting is an icon. He beat most of the top guys of his generation, many who are in the WWE HoF. He was involved in top story lines, had great matches, won about every belt/trophy he could during career and has a career that spans 4 decades. And there it is. No, he wasn't, and no, he didn't. That's the whole point. When did he fight any WWE legends? When did he ever win any WWE titles? He had a memorable feud with Flair, and later on with Vader. That's it. Lots of guys are involved in "top story lines" and have "great matches (subjective btw, Sting has never been a "great match" guy in my book) who aren't icons. Some of the reasons given for not being an icon are silly. Is not know by non wrestling fans? So what, we are talking wrestling not media. He has not worked for WWE? Again so what. So what isn't an argument. You can't be an icon if no one knows who you are. You can't be an icon in the sport you choose if you never reached the top of it. Those two things define and everything an icon is. That's kinda the point. And we aren't just talking wrestling media. If we went by only that, we'd be brain washed into thinking Hulk Hogan was both the worst wrestler of the year and most hated (several years during his prime) according to Wrestling Observer. And of course, both of those things are absurd. Sting has a popular cult following (at best) made up of old NWA/WCW fans. For all intents and purposes, he retired in 2001. 99.9% of the entire world doesn't even know the guy exists anymore. He can probably best be compared to Magnum TA. Had ALL the potential in the world to be a true icon, but never made it. Magnum's career obviously cut short by a bad car accident. Stings, cut short by bad business decisions and arguably, lack of balls. After all, he did say we was inches from meeting Taker at Mania but didn't follow through. No "icon" in this business would ever turn down an opportunity like that. No way. Icons seize moments, and make history doing it, not avoid them. |
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Post by Justin Case on Jun 16, 2012 20:30:12 GMT -5
I can't believe we're still even talking about this? really?
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Post by Pete on Jun 16, 2012 21:24:31 GMT -5
And WCW beating the WWF is ratings was winning battles in a war they ultimately lost. And even then, the only reason they did is because they used the guys Vince created against him. You could even say WCW never beat WWF, only the WWF beat themselves by being too good at creating starts, then losing them to Turner. After all, if WWF didn't make those guys stars, WCW would have had no one to use against them. Only thanks to Vince were they able to even tread water, I'm not going to get into this entire post and I'm drifting this off-topic but I want to point out that this is pretty much exactly how the WWF expanded--grab up every other territory's top stars. I'm not trying to say Vince wasn't/isn't the best promoter ever or that he wasn't outthinking/outfoxing every other wrestling promoter in the country. But Hulk Hogan made himself before Vince made him bigger-- Rocky III was years earlier and he was already a huge drawing card in the AWA and New Japan. Piper was a major wrestling star already. Junkyard Dog was already a major star. Andre was already a major star. Snuka and Orndorff were already stars. Savage was already established as having major star potential but was only held back because he had worked for an "outlaw" fed for so long. Vince had the foresight to act first and to give guys a bigger stage, but his initial expansion strategy was pretty much exactly what Bischoff did to him years later. As for AAA and New Japan, I have to go by money drawn for the time period over "name recognition." Having your name recognized will get you a cup of coffee. Maybe. Gates are at least hard data to work with. New Japan was selling out the Tokyo Dome multiple times a year at a time when the WWF was running Monday Night Raw in high school basements. |
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Post by Pete on Jun 16, 2012 21:26:27 GMT -5
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJnYlryVDesI wasn't exaggerating about the "school basement" thing, either. I mean, you tell me where else Bret and Crush are supposed to be in this clip.
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Post by payback on Jun 16, 2012 22:33:48 GMT -5
WWE only dominant for a decade? WWF/E has been the No. 1 promotion for 30+ years. Yep, they totally weren't getting their asses handed to them by WCW in the mid 90s. WCW beat Raw in the ratings for a grand total of 18 months. Vince was on top the rest of the time, and, oh yeah, bought WCW for about $3 million. Go back and watch WCW Nitros from the time they were winning the ratings war. Those shows suck for the most part. A decisive finish was a big time rarity and they were using guys way past their prime that were made by Vince. If WCW was so good, they would've won the ratings war. They had a decent run for awhile but people think WCW was way better than WWE for a long time and that's just not true. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2012 12:05:00 GMT -5
New Japan? AAA? No. How is that even an option? Because New Japan's big shows shows from 1993-1996 combined outdrew pretty much every show WWF put on from 1993-1996? Because AAA was far more popular in Mexico than the WWF was here during that same period? Because in Japan the wrestling did FAR HIGHER ratings than wrestling did here without the supposed number one promotion and it's stars? Because it's completely true? Want me to keep going? The WWF wasn't the number one promotion in the world in 1995....or 1994...or 1996...or 1993. I don't care about name recognition, 1995 was their worst year EVER, there were plenty of promotions in the world doing much better than they were during the mid 90s. Now, the late 90s is a totally different story because it's unquestionable WWF took the lead in 1998, but to say they were #1 in the mid 90s when New Japan, All Japan, and AAA were murdering WWF's attendance shows that you don't have a clue what you're talking about. I'm sure you're gonna try to argue this, but if all you've got is 'ask a million people what those companies are and they wouldn't know', it's safe to say the argument's gonna be over pretty quickly. As for AAA and New Japan, I have to go by money drawn for the time period over "name recognition." Having your name recognized will get you a cup of coffee. Maybe. Gates are at least hard data to work with. New Japan was selling out the Tokyo Dome multiple times a year at a time when the WWF was running Monday Night Raw in high school basements. Ding ding ding, we've got a winner. |
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Post by du5tin on Jun 17, 2012 12:30:40 GMT -5
I just have one thing to say. When it comes to asking who is who and what is what, honestly, you have to consider geographical location, time, and culture. You cannot always look at this through American eyes.
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