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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2012 12:32:44 GMT -5
Also, when it comes to asking 'who is who' and 'what is what,' honestly, you have to consider geographical location, time, and culture. Another good point. Shawn Michaels (for example) could have walked down any street in Mexico during that era, and provided he wasn't killed, nobody would know who he was. Same can be said for Muto in America, Konnan in Japan, etc. Again, name recognition means nothing. The promotion drawing does, and WWF couldn't outdraw New Japan or AAA in that era. |
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Post by swarm on Jun 17, 2012 15:40:16 GMT -5
And WCW beating the WWF is ratings was winning battles in a war they ultimately lost. And even then, the only reason they did is because they used the guys Vince created against him. You could even say WCW never beat WWF, only the WWF beat themselves by being too good at creating starts, then losing them to Turner. After all, if WWF didn't make those guys stars, WCW would have had no one to use against them. Only thanks to Vince were they able to even tread water, I'm not going to get into this entire post and I'm drifting this off-topic but I want to point out that this is pretty much exactly how the WWF expanded--grab up every other territory's top stars. I'm not trying to say Vince wasn't/isn't the best promoter ever or that he wasn't outthinking/outfoxing every other wrestling promoter in the country. But Hulk Hogan made himself before Vince made him bigger-- Rocky III was years earlier and he was already a huge drawing card in the AWA and New Japan. Piper was a major wrestling star already. Junkyard Dog was already a major star. Andre was already a major star. Snuka and Orndorff were already stars. Savage was already established as having major star potential but was only held back because he had worked for an "outlaw" fed for so long. Vince had the foresight to act first and to give guys a bigger stage, but his initial expansion strategy was pretty much exactly what Bischoff did to him years later. I always like this debate, even if I never will agree with this argument. I lived through all of this. I can tell you that none of those guys were "stars" before they went to the WWF. I REALLY think, if nothing else, this thread shows how casually people throw around words like "icon" and "stars". A "star" is someone the whole world knows about. Did a bunch of those guys have success in territories before coming to the WWF? Ya, but they weren't stars. Vince made them stars by putting them on national television, by inventing Wrestlemania, by partnering with MTV and by creating things like cartoons and toys. All those things made guys like Snuka, Piper, JYD, Orndorff, Macho Man and all the rest, "stars". I've seen a video of Hogan effortlessly body slamming Andre years before WM3 in front of a couple hundred people and there was absolutely no reaction to it. Fast forward a few years, and with Vince manning the ship the same thing causes 90,000+ to explode. Why? Because he helped make them stars. If that wasn't true, they would have been doing that in the AWA and other places, and they didn't. As if "just gave them a bigger stage" is some snap of the fingers thing. Vince took clay and molded heroes. Hall and Nash were already legit stars created by Vince when they came over to WCW, that's why it had such an impact. I'm not saying WWF wasn't born by taking from territories, but as a fan who lived through all of that, I can tell you none of those guys were house hold names before Wrestlemania 1. I don't know how you can call Hogan a "huge" draw in the AWA, when the AWA in itself was AT BEST viewed as 3rd behind WWF and NWA. I remember the exact day Hulk Hogan became a "star". It was the day that Sports Illustrated article came out and he was on the cover in 1985. That was the exact turning point for him, and pro wrestling's love affair with the mainstream that we are still experiencing today. As for AAA and New Japan, I have to go by money drawn for the time period over "name recognition." Having your name recognized will get you a cup of coffee. Maybe. Gates are at least hard data to work with. New Japan was selling out the Tokyo Dome multiple times a year at a time when the WWF was running Monday Night Raw in high school basements. Where is this information? In the Wrestling Observer? I can't tell you even ONE guy who ever wrestled in AAA and I've been a wrestling fan my whole life. And I'm sure I'm not alone. I'm not a dirt sheet fan, soaking up every word ever written by Dave Melter, but I lived through all those years, and none of that news ever found me, or anyone else I grew up with. In comparison, good luck finding a Mexican or Japanese wrestling fan who never heard of WWF or can't name one guy who ever wrestled for them. When things are truly "the best", they find you, because EVERYONE is talking about it. You don't have to find them, or be some super expert in area in question. The WWF has always been destination 1 for the majority of pro wrestlers. Never had AAA or Japan been the promised land. You never saw the main guys in WWF, or any US fed trying to leave for Japan. Instead, it's always been foreign wrestlers looking to break into the US culture, or US wrestlers going to Japan to improve, only to return to the states. The RAW in a basement comment is just unbelievable. As if the WWF was some Indy fed when RAW began. This was pro wrestling's first attempt at live cable TV. The design was specific, having each RAW being held in the Manhattan Center, honing the live TV craft. They were selling out every show all year. I would imagine if they were good enough to perfect live TV in front of multiples of thousands from show 1, they would have. That same year in 1993 where you brag about New Japan selling out the Tokyo Dome, WWF Champion Hulk Hogan sold out the Fukuoka Dome (55,000) main eventing vs. the Great Muta. No one has ever questioned Japanese fans love for wrestling. Here is a challenge: Just a few names from the WWF roster in 1993. Hulk Hogan, Brett "Hitman" Hart, Randy "Macho Man" Savage, "The Birdman" Koko B. Ware,"The Million Dollar Man" Ted Dibiase, "Hacksaw" Jim Duggin, Shawn Michaels, "Mr. Perfect" Curt Hennig, The Undertaker, Scott "Razor Ramon" Hall, Yokozuna, Bam-Bam Bigelow, Brutus "The Barber" Beefcake. That's 12 guys (could have been more) who I think we can all agree on are legit "stars", thanks to the WWF. Most anyone you talk to today will know everyone of those names. In the US or over seas. Anyone not agree? Now name me 12 guys from New Japan and/or AAA that 99/100 people on the street will recognize. I'm not disputing the claims, but I'm saying you gotta be the "best" for more than 18 months, or even two or three years when looking at the big picture, before you can really say you were king. Like, last year Buffalo beat New England. Anyone here think the Bills were better team last year? or do people still consider the Pats the team to beat going into next year? Same deal here. Down and out are two different things. |
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Post by on_the_edge on Jun 17, 2012 17:39:57 GMT -5
New Japan? AAA? No. How is that even an option? Go ask a million people what "AAA" is and I guarantee you, you will hear "insurance company" every time. That is an American slanted point of view. If I was to go to Mexico City and ask a million people I am pretty sure "a wrestling company" would trounce "an insurance company" |
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Post by du5tin on Jun 17, 2012 18:00:20 GMT -5
New Japan? AAA? No. How is that even an option? Go ask a million people what "AAA" is and I guarantee you, you will hear "insurance company" every time. That is an American slanted point of view. If I was to go to Mexico City and ask a million people I am pretty sure "a wrestling company" would trounce "an insurance company" I lived in Mexico for a month during a summer semester. I don't recall any WWE, but EVERYWHERE I went... I saw magazines, toys, masks, more toys, cheap toys, posters, flyers, and all were about lucha libre. I never saw a WWE Superstar piece of memorabilia (though I'm sure many are known there), but EVERYBODY knew El Santo, El Hijo del Santo, Atlantis, La Parka, Cibernetico, El Mesias, Blue Demon, Rey, Mascaras, Casas, Wagner, any Guerrero, and so many more. Santo surpassed wrestling, and not in a Chaperone way. |
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Post by pikemojo on Jun 17, 2012 18:22:52 GMT -5
Here is a challenge: Just a few names from the WWF roster in 1993. Hulk Hogan, Brett "Hitman" Hart, Randy "Macho Man" Savage, "The Birdman" Koko B. Ware,"The Million Dollar Man" Ted Dibiase, "Hacksaw" Jim Duggin, Shawn Michaels, "Mr. Perfect" Curt Hennig, The Undertaker, Scott "Razor Ramon" Hall, Yokozuna, Bam-Bam Bigelow, Brutus "The Barber" Beefcake. That's 12 guys (could have been more) who I think we can all agree on are legit "stars", thanks to the WWF. Most anyone you talk to today will know everyone of those names. In the US or over seas. Anyone not agree? The only guys that are legit household names are guys like Hogan, Rock, Andre and guys like that. You would not have 99/100 knowing Duggan, Bigelow, Beefcake, Ramon, Michaels, Hennig, etc... Being the wrestling fan that I am I talk about wrestlers alot and I bet that if you had asked my mom when I was younger or even my wife now about wrestlers that I had talked to them about they could not have repeated their names back to you. So just imagine all the families without rabid wrestling fans in their households. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2012 18:35:58 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2012 20:55:28 GMT -5
As for AAA and New Japan, I have to go by money drawn for the time period over "name recognition." Having your name recognized will get you a cup of coffee. Maybe. Gates are at least hard data to work with. New Japan was selling out the Tokyo Dome multiple times a year at a time when the WWF was running Monday Night Raw in high school basements. Where is this information? In the Wrestling Observer? I can't tell you even ONE guy who ever wrestled in AAA and I've been a wrestling fan my whole life. And I'm sure I'm not alone. I'm not a dirt sheet fan, soaking up every word ever written by Dave Melter, but I lived through all those years, and none of that news ever found me, or anyone else I grew up with. In comparison, good luck finding a Mexican or Japanese wrestling fan who never heard of WWF or can't name one guy who ever wrestled for them. When things are truly "the best", they find you, because EVERYONE is talking about it. You don't have to find them, or be some super expert in area in question You're aware that most Mexican fans had no clue what the WWF was before the mid 90s, right? They didn't even have wrestling on television largely until the 1990s and even then it was just AAA/CMLL. Their FIRST EXPOSURE TO THE WWF was the mid 90s when AAA had the brief agreement with the WWF. I guarantee you if in 1995 you showed most Mexican fans a picture of Bret Hart or the Undertaker, they wouldn't know who the hell you were talking about. And that most wrestling fans in Mexico, as in the die hard lucha fans, couldn't name you five WWE stars. Del Rio, Misterio, Mistico, Undertaker and maybe some of them would say Cena. The same goes for Japan where TO THIS DAY the WWE struggles to do decent attendance. The WWF had to co promote with All Japan, SWS and WAR just to do well with their Japanese tours. Oh, and if you were a lifelong wrestling fan and read the Apter mags like everyone else, there's a part of the magazine called the International Report where even in the 90s, they talked about AAA. That's where I saw Rey and Psicosis for the first time. The WWF has always been destination 1 for the majority of pro wrestlers. Never had AAA or Japan been the promised land. You never saw the main guys in WWF, or any US fed trying to leave for Japan. Instead, it's always been foreign wrestlers looking to break into the US culture, or US wrestlers going to Japan to improve, only to return to the states. Steve Williams, Vader, Low Ki, MVP, Tomko...they all left for Japan. The RAW in a basement comment is just unbelievable. As if the WWF was some Indy fed when RAW began. This was pro wrestling's first attempt at live cable TV. The design was specific, having each RAW being held in the Manhattan Center, honing the live TV craft. They were selling out every show all year. I would imagine if they were good enough to perfect live TV in front of multiples of thousands from show 1, they would have. You didn't even bother watching that clip, did you? It wasn't from the Manhattan Center, it was from some random ass building where I'd almost bet they papered the shit out of the attebdance. That same year in 1993 where you brag about New Japan selling out the Tokyo Dome, WWF Champion Hulk Hogan sold out the Fukuoka Dome (55,000) main eventing vs. the Great Muta. No one has ever questioned Japanese fans love for wrestling. I love that you threw 'WWF Champion' in there like it made a difference in the match drawing. It had nothing to do with it. Hogan was a HUGE star in Japan, and him facing Muta was a dream match for those people. Hogan could have been ECW Television Champion and the match would have drawn the same, the letters 'WWF' didn't mean shit to those people. Oh, and that match you're talking about is where Hogan legit buried the WWF title in an interview after. Here is a challenge: Just a few names from the WWF roster in 1993. Hulk Hogan, Brett "Hitman" Hart, Randy "Macho Man" Savage, "The Birdman" Koko B. Ware,"The Million Dollar Man" Ted Dibiase, "Hacksaw" Jim Duggin, Shawn Michaels, "Mr. Perfect" Curt Hennig, The Undertaker, Scott "Razor Ramon" Hall, Yokozuna, Bam-Bam Bigelow, Brutus "The Barber" Beefcake. That's 12 guys (could have been more) who I think we can all agree on are legit "stars", thanks to the WWF. Most anyone you talk to today will know everyone of those names. In the US or over seas. Anyone not agree? Just asked my mom, the only names she new were Hogan, Bret, Savage, Mr. Perfect, Michaels and Undertaker. Called up a friend who hasn't watched wrestling since third grade (00-01), he only remembers Hogan, Savage and Undertaker. He had no clue who the hell Duggan, Yokozuna, Bigelow, Beefcake and Koko B. Ware were. Talked to my cousin who was a huge fan in that era on Facebook and the only names he remembered were Hogan, Bret, Michaels, Taker and Savage. Yokozuna is a name people would only know because he went in the HOF this year. Most people won't know Bigelow, Beefcake, Duggan, DiBiase and if you think MOST FANS here, let alone overseas, would know who Koko B. Ware is then you're out of your goddamned mind. I can go to the southernmost part of California and I guarantee you I could find 100 people who know who Mesias, Cibernetico, Konnan (don't even use him being in WCW as an argument for why they'd know him, that guy is a part of the Mexican culture), Dr. Wagner Jr, Ultimo Guerrero, Heavy Metal, Psicosis, Fabi Apache, Perro Aguayo, El Hijo del Santo, Octagon and La Parka....or do the people who would recognize those names not count? This changes nothing about your argument. You're arguing that WWF was the number one promotion in the world when they were running shows in ~1,500 seat buildings with the occasional shows at MSG, Nassau and a few other big buildings while AAA was packing 5,000 seat plus buildings regularly, New Japan were packing the Sumo Hall, the Dome AND the Budokan and All Japan was filling the Budokan for every single tour ending show. |
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Post by payback on Jun 17, 2012 23:08:04 GMT -5
The WWE ran shows in buildings of all kinds. Did they do shows in 1,500 seat arenas? Yes. I went to one at K-Wings Stadium in Kalamazoo, MI 2 yrs ago where there were about 1,200 people there but it doesn't mean that they couldn't draw more in other places as their PPV audiences show.
AJWP only had 7 shows in January 2011 so I don't see how you can compare their numbers to WWE who is putting on 28 shows in the month of July.
WWE has always branched out in an effort to make their brand international. All the Japanese and Mexican promotions (which are all pretty good BTW) are territories. They stay home and most of them co-promote to generate larger crowds a few times a year, which is smart.
WCW won the ratings war for a few months but other than that, Vince has been on top since 1985. He drew 93,000+ and 80,000+ in Michigan alone for WrestleMania. WCW never even came close to those numbers (and that's not counting how many more watched on PPV).
Back to the Sting topic. Decent wrestler but not an icon.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2012 7:25:14 GMT -5
The WWE ran shows in buildings of all kinds. Did they do shows in 1,500 seat arenas? Yes. I went to one at K-Wings Stadium in Kalamazoo, MI 2 yrs ago where there were about 1,200 people there but it doesn't mean that they couldn't draw more in other places as their PPV audiences show. What does TWO YEARS AGO have to do with the debate at hand? Again, what the hell does that have to do with AJPW outdrawing them in the early/mid 90s? NJPW isn't a territory. They run basically most of Japan. They're a national company. Even though the 93,000 and the 80,000 aren't the 'real' (as in paid) attendances, this is true. Hell, WCW's 'sell out' of the Georgia Dome for Goldberg/Hogan wasn't really a sell out. They gave away a gigantic number of tickets. Agreed. |
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Post by Trav on Jun 18, 2012 7:45:42 GMT -5
For me, it doesn't matter what definition of ICON we're using, Sting doesn't make the cut. And I was a HUGE fan of his when I was younger. I think LEGEND applies to your longevity and overall status in the industry. An ICON, again to me, should be reserved those that truly transcend the industry. Those who've done something to make the industry bigger than it was before they came around. Hogan, Andre, Stone Cold, the Rock, HBK, Undertaker...while all of these are WWE names and became huge while working for Vince...are among the names that I would associate with the word ICON. That being said, some of those same guys wouldn't be considered ICONs if you were to go to other parts of the world and ask wrestling fans there. Two exceptions to that would be Hogan and Andre, who were legit international stars.
For the original argument, Sting, to me, is a LEGEND. But he's past the point in his career where he could ever, in my eyes, be considered an ICON.
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