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Post by on_the_edge on Feb 15, 2017 2:47:06 GMT -5
If Dusty were still alive, they'd be slapping a Bullet Club shirt on him just like they did the with the nWo way back when. Cannot believe ROH has become so...BAD. Didn't they end up turning on Dusty? Cause I see them doing that with Kaz after Cole has defeated Daniels with Kaz's help. Use him and abuse him. Of course if Daniels is thinking of retiring, not saying he is just if it is possible, they need something for Kaz to do and for most of his career he has been better as either a tag team or a group and not solo. |
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Post by on_the_edge on Feb 15, 2017 2:53:00 GMT -5
ROH is the number 2 North American promotion. Period. Sorry TNA or LU--when either promotion makes a dime of profit I will reconsider. However, ROH has completely fumbled, squandered, or otherwise messed up any chance of staking a real big footprint on the current wrestling landscape. Delirious is a train wreck of a booker (see the recent Bullet Club silliness), and ROH has shown zero ability to keep its house in order. Very sad that the one true alternative to WWEmpire has watching itself wither on the vine. As a fan of TNA I can probably agree with that statement. However without seeing their actual books it is hard to say. While TNA does not do house shows unlike ROH they do have TV deals in the US, granted not a great deal, and overseas including roughly $6 million a year from Sony SIX. While ROH is on TV those stations are owned by Sinclair who owns ROH so not sure if you can really count any money they get from that. I am not sure about their cable deal but even then I can not see ROH making more from that than TNA makes from Pop. So really it is hard to tell how both companies are doing. For the record I do not count money TNA gets from Fight Network/Antham as they own TNA now and also I do think when it is all added up ROH probably does make more than TNA but I doubt it is much of a gap. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2017 3:25:40 GMT -5
ROH is the number 2 North American promotion. Period. Sorry TNA or LU--when either promotion makes a dime of profit I will reconsider. However, ROH has completely fumbled, squandered, or otherwise messed up any chance of staking a real big footprint on the current wrestling landscape. Delirious is a train wreck of a booker (see the recent Bullet Club silliness), and ROH has shown zero ability to keep its house in order. Very sad that the one true alternative to WWEmpire has watching itself wither on the vine. As a fan of TNA I can probably agree with that statement. However without seeing their actual books it is hard to say. While TNA does not do house shows unlike ROH they do have TV deals in the US, granted not a great deal, and overseas including roughly $6 million a year from Sony SIX. While ROH is on TV those stations are owned by Sinclair who owns ROH so not sure if you can really count any money they get from that. I am not sure about their cable deal but even then I can not see ROH making more from that than TNA makes from Pop. So really it is hard to tell how both companies are doing. For the record I do not count money TNA gets from Fight Network/Antham as they own TNA now and also I do think when it is all added up ROH probably does make more than TNA but I doubt it is much of a gap. Actually, it's not hard to tell how both companies are doing. TNA was on the verge of very real death before Anthem stepped in. The company is going to continue bleeding money because they don't charge money to get into shows and they don't tour and on top of that, their guaranteed deals are generally for much more than ROH offers. ROH sells tickets to their shows, they tour regularly, they do well (relatively speaking) on PPV and going by the last numbers that were thrown around by people I heard from in 2015 and 2016, their syndicated show is watched by more people than Impact on Pop. The 'which one is #2' debate doesn't exist anymore. It's been ROH for years. TNA losing Spike and replacing Spike two times with increasingly bad TV deals finished off their chances of being #2 unless ROH takes a massive nosedive this year which, given how things are going, is entirely possible but equally possible is TNA taking a massive nosedive. |
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Post by on_the_edge on Feb 15, 2017 4:36:55 GMT -5
As a fan of TNA I can probably agree with that statement. However without seeing their actual books it is hard to say. While TNA does not do house shows unlike ROH they do have TV deals in the US, granted not a great deal, and overseas including roughly $6 million a year from Sony SIX. While ROH is on TV those stations are owned by Sinclair who owns ROH so not sure if you can really count any money they get from that. I am not sure about their cable deal but even then I can not see ROH making more from that than TNA makes from Pop. So really it is hard to tell how both companies are doing. For the record I do not count money TNA gets from Fight Network/Antham as they own TNA now and also I do think when it is all added up ROH probably does make more than TNA but I doubt it is much of a gap. Actually, it's not hard to tell how both companies are doing. TNA was on the verge of very real death before Anthem stepped in. The company is going to continue bleeding money because they don't charge money to get into shows and they don't tour and on top of that, their guaranteed deals are generally for much more than ROH offers. ROH sells tickets to their shows, they tour regularly, they do well (relatively speaking) on PPV and going by the last numbers that were thrown around by people I heard from in 2015 and 2016, their syndicated show is watched by more people than Impact on Pop. The 'which one is #2' debate doesn't exist anymore. It's been ROH for years. TNA losing Spike and replacing Spike two times with increasingly bad TV deals finished off their chances of being #2 unless ROH takes a massive nosedive this year which, given how things are going, is entirely possible but equally possible is TNA taking a massive nosedive. Sure all of that looks like ROH is clearly beating TNA. A part of a picture is not the whole picture. Like I said it is possible ROH is doing it. There are more factors that could influence things in either direction. For instance TNA used to tour but most people say they actually lost money doing that. Now I doubt ROH is losing money with their touring but the profit margin might be less than some would expect. TNA being on the verge of real death is possible but then again it might have been overblown. We keep hearing stories about employees not getting paid on time yet we never saw a real flow of employees leaving. Even if they were and it was due to no revenue from the company that does not mean they were alone. It is possible that Sinclair is keeping ROH going. That and their working relationship with NJPW. If NJPW decided to end that relationship ROH could really be in some trouble. Finally as an example of how not all info is known is something you said that is said often by others and is slightly inaccurate. While TNA does not sell tickets to their tapings they do sell VIP passes. Now these do not bring in big money they do bring in $3000 or more each set. Now if people over look that money it is possible more is over looked or under counted. I mean if they get only half a million from their foreign deals and have 10 markets that is $5 million a year. |
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Post by executioner on Feb 15, 2017 9:19:12 GMT -5
I do not wish to be disagreeable, but the effort TNA fans argue they are number two is laughable. TNA fans seem to conveniently forget the Dixie v. Corgan law suit. Or how TNA cannot get buys for what PPV they do, and it has been years since they ran a house show. Further, Don West is practically giving away merch. The Pop TV deal is strictly a barter deal--TNA is making minimal if any money on the show. TNA fans relying on the "India deal" overlook the fact that this deal was the only thing keeping TNA going for a time (then Corgan had to bail out TNA but again TNA wants you to forget that unseemly detail).
While ROH is flawed (see my previous posts), they have a steady house show business, steady PPV/IPPV business, and they move some merch. That is not to say ROH is on steady ground, because, well they are not. But ROH is clearly #2 over TNA and LU-not that it really matters a great deal in the WWE conquered world.
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Post by maddog1981 on Feb 15, 2017 9:43:26 GMT -5
I would argue NXT is the no. 2 promotion in the US right now. I could see arguing it's just the WWE but they have their own roster and draw based on their name alone.
It's also a weak argument but Meltzer was saying a few weeks ago that he thinks New Japan has more fan interest in the US than any other promotion than WWE due to the feedback he gets.
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Post by executioner on Feb 15, 2017 10:07:26 GMT -5
I would argue NXT is the no. 2 promotion in the US right now. I could see arguing it's just the WWE but they have their own roster and draw based on their name alone. It's also a weak argument but Meltzer was saying a few weeks ago that he thinks New Japan has more fan interest in the US than any other promotion than WWE due to the feedback he gets. You raise an interesting point about NXT. I think since it is another brand under the WWE umbrella, it probably should not be considered #2. But it is a worthy argument. |
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Post by maddog1981 on Feb 15, 2017 10:21:53 GMT -5
I think my biggest pro argument for NXT is they build and draw on their own stars. They've successfully toured for 2 years now with Nakamura, Sasha, Bayley, Joe, Finn, KO and Roode. None of those guys had appeared on TV and it's an online only show that got popular by word of mouth. The WWE association has also not helped development companies in the past.
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Post by executioner on Feb 15, 2017 14:40:36 GMT -5
I think my biggest pro argument for NXT is they build and draw on their own stars. They've successfully toured for 2 years now with Nakamura, Sasha, Bayley, Joe, Finn, KO and Roode. None of those guys had appeared on TV and it's an online only show that got popular by word of mouth. The WWE association has also not helped development companies in the past. To be fair, Roode and Samoa Joe had spent years on TNA tv, with the others (minus Bayley) getting a lot of exposure via ROH or NJPW. The WWE association is different. Unlike OVW or DSW, WWE owns NXT. WWE has significant skin in the success and development of NXT. This is not a partnership like OVW. WWE's marketing and production power really helps NXT. NXT's ability to gain viewers being online only has been very impressive. |
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Post by maddog1981 on Feb 15, 2017 15:25:45 GMT -5
I will give you Joe and Roode. But I'm the only person in my circles that had ever seen Nakamura or Finn wrestle before. They knew how Owens was but none of them watched RoH TV at the time because it was so low rent. So to them, all of those guys were new.
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