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Post by maddog1981 on Feb 15, 2017 15:27:50 GMT -5
And just to add. Being a star elsewhere hasn't always translated to NXT either. KENTA is a good example of it not working out.
Actually, I'm going to do a take back on Joe. He was largely seen as washed up heading into NXT and his first couple of months felt that way. He really rehabbed his image a ton in NXT.
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Post by pikemojo on Feb 15, 2017 16:33:26 GMT -5
I do not wish to be disagreeable, but the effort TNA fans argue they are number two is laughable. TNA fans seem to conveniently forget the Dixie v. Corgan law suit. Or how TNA cannot get buys for what PPV they do, and it has been years since they ran a house show. Further, Don West is practically giving away merch. The Pop TV deal is strictly a barter deal--TNA is making minimal if any money on the show. TNA fans relying on the "India deal" overlook the fact that this deal was the only thing keeping TNA going for a time (then Corgan had to bail out TNA but again TNA wants you to forget that unseemly detail). While ROH is flawed (see my previous posts), they have a steady house show business, steady PPV/IPPV business, and they move some merch. That is not to say ROH is on steady ground, because, well they are not. But ROH is clearly #2 over TNA and LU-not that it really matters a great deal in the WWE conquered world. Just to keep the conversation going... I think the real reason (aside from wanting/needing money) for the massive TNA merch clearance right now is that Anthem might be looking to clear out anything with "TNA" on it in favor of pushing the Impact name. They also have a newish deal with prowrestlingtees.com so it may be that they have found that deal to be a better deal for their shirts than printing themselves and warehousing all that merch until it eventually sells. None of us actually know which company is #2 and I'm sure that all depends on an individual's definition of what #2 actually means. Which company ran a more profitable business? Which company had bigger stars? More visibility? I have little doubt that ROH was a more profitable company but I also am fairly sure that it won't take a business super genius to move TNA into the black. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2017 21:45:03 GMT -5
And just to add. Being a star elsewhere hasn't always translated to NXT either. KENTA is a good example of it not working out. KENTA was grossly mishandled. He had a lot of buzz coming in and then they botched the whole thing. |
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Post by maddog1981 on Feb 15, 2017 21:49:02 GMT -5
He also got hurt right when they started to figure it out.
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Post by on_the_edge on Feb 16, 2017 4:50:55 GMT -5
I do not wish to be disagreeable, but the effort TNA fans argue they are number two is laughable. TNA fans seem to conveniently forget the Dixie v. Corgan law suit. Or how TNA cannot get buys for what PPV they do, and it has been years since they ran a house show. Further, Don West is practically giving away merch. The Pop TV deal is strictly a barter deal--TNA is making minimal if any money on the show. TNA fans relying on the "India deal" overlook the fact that this deal was the only thing keeping TNA going for a time (then Corgan had to bail out TNA but again TNA wants you to forget that unseemly detail). While ROH is flawed (see my previous posts), they have a steady house show business, steady PPV/IPPV business, and they move some merch. That is not to say ROH is on steady ground, because, well they are not. But ROH is clearly #2 over TNA and LU-not that it really matters a great deal in the WWE conquered world. You are not being disagreeable just misunderstanding things. I am not arguing that TNA is number two. Thought I made it clear that ROH probably is number two right now. I was just saying if we are going off profitability to decide that we can only make an educated guess without seeing the actual books. Let me see if I can explain it another way to show what I am saying. It seems people are using profitability as the gauge which is probably the best way. Now people who seem to think ROH is clearly the leader based on the fact they tour, possibly have as many viewers as TNA and do more traditional PPVs than TNA. While that may seem like they would be more profitable lets look back a decade or so. TNA was touring steady, had monthly traditional PPVs and was doing much better in viewership. Most people would say they were the number two promotion easily. However we learned that not only was their profit margin not good, it was in the red as they were losing money. What was keeping them going was Dixie's parents company Panda Energy. People say TNA started going down when they lost the Spike deal but really the bigger blow was Panda Energy no longer supporting TNA financially. It could be argued now that back than, from a profit stand point, ROH might have been the number two company. That leads me to my point, is ROH really making profit these days or is Sinclair supplementing them like Panda Energy did back then. I mean technically ROH is not getting paid for being on TV since their owners own the stations they are on. Like I said on a previous post TNA used to get money from Anthem that counted as income but now that Anthem owns them that does not count. I mean if any of us open a store and we have no customers and use our own money to pay bills the company is not profitable. Yes ROH tours more, but do they really make money doing it. TNA did not so it is possible that ROH does not. Same thing for PPVs. And while the US TV deal for TNA is peanuts they do have some decent deals in international markets. That is something that far as I know ROH does not have. To summarize ROH might be very profitable but without seeing the books and actual numbers we do not KNOW. An educated guess says they probably are. So while we can say ROH is probably number two now it is not the sure thing some might think. |
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Post by Sinclair Promotions on Feb 16, 2017 5:47:17 GMT -5
Here are my thoughts on the "Number Two" position.
Hands down WWE has the Top One, Two and Three touring brands in the United States right now (this isn't taking into consideration their international tours).
TNA/Impact simply doesn't tour because to be completely honest they can't afford to. When they were touring I think they set their sights on bigger arena's then they could fill. This simply doesn't work - if you don't sell out the venue you don't even come close to making back the money it cost you to rent the building. Now where TNA did have an advantage over ROH is they were able to tour internationally and had/have television time in a lot of those markets. Their English tours proved this point for a number of years as they were the shows that drew the greatest crowds for TNA. WWE has jumped all over this and the United Kingdom Tournament and from the sounds of it Television Show and Touring Brand help prove this point.
ROH runs their shows in much smaller venues then TNA use to run in and this probably saves the company a lot of money, yet from reports they are no longer selling out most of these venues so we are back to the point I made about TNA running bigger venues and not selling them out. Sure Sinclair Broadcasting currently owns ROH and airs their program on their networks. For Sinclair Broadcasting this could be cheaper for them than running reruns of a couple of sitcoms so for them ROH is viable option. Also seeing ROH runs their PPV's and Television Tapings on back to back nights in the same venue this also saves them cash as they only have to set up and tear down once for multiple weeks of their program. Broadcasting only an hour of Television a week really helps ROH in this scenario.
Meanwhile you have New Japan (hands down the Number Two promotion in the world) looking to gain a place in the North American market. If they do it right they could easily be the Number Two promotion in North America in only a few years time. All it will take is moving a couple of their PPV's to America and running them in Prime Time. All New Japan has to do is run a couple of shows of the caliber of their Wrestle Kingdom shows and have a fairly cheap price point they could easily gain more fans as they work to gain more main stream attention.
Sadly I don't think we will ever see another Monday Night War situation in Professional Wrestling, but if one of the above promotions can gain any sort of steam in the North American market it could force WWE to up their game. Especially when it comes to both Raw and Smackdown.
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Post by lucifer on Feb 16, 2017 10:54:52 GMT -5
Interesting discussion, valid points made by all. However, I seriously doubt that WWE will ever look over their shoulders again. I agree, there will never be another Monday Night War situation in American wrestling. I honestly believe the biggest threat to WWE is in fact NXT, at least as far as the wrestlers go. Love watching the footage of HHH giving pep talks, imploring the NXT guys and gals to outdo the Raw and Smackdown talent. Sadly, seems like lately all of the NXT momentum is lost upon "graduation", though I do like what they've done with Joe. So far...
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Post by on_the_edge on Feb 17, 2017 1:47:59 GMT -5
Yep the days of the MNW is far gone. Only way anyone comes close to WWE is if WWE lets the wheels fall off their warmachine. Like if Vince passes and the family sells the company or passes on creative to others. Good discussion and to add to it I will say TNA really is the number 2 company in the US. Only trailing the number 1 company ROH. Because as we all know Raw, Smackdown and NXT are in their own Universe  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 7:26:30 GMT -5
Here are my thoughts on the "Number Two" position. Hands down WWE has the Top One, Two and Three touring brands in the United States right now (this isn't taking into consideration their international tours). I would agree, but they're still under the same umbrella. TNA/Impact simply doesn't tour because to be completely honest they can't afford to. When they were touring I think they set their sights on bigger arena's then they could fill. This simply doesn't work - if you don't sell out the venue you don't even come close to making back the money it cost you to rent the building. They had Kurt Angle and Jeff Hardy, who was right off of a red hot run in WWE when he came back in 2010. The only way they would have been running buildings that were too big is if they ran 10,000 seat venues for their house shows and they didn't. Now where TNA did have an advantage over ROH is they were able to tour internationally and had/have television time in a lot of those markets. Their English tours proved this point for a number of years as they were the shows that drew the greatest crowds for TNA. TNA's largest legit crowds were LockDown 2013 and the first TV taping after that. San Antonio and Chicago, respectively. WWE has jumped all over this and the United Kingdom Tournament and from the sounds of it Television Show and Touring Brand help prove this point. WWE has drawn well in the UK since they first toured in Europe in 1989. Them jumping on the UK market like they have has nothing to do with TNA and everything to do with World of Sport. ROH runs their shows in much smaller venues then TNA use to run in and this probably saves the company a lot of money, yet from reports they are no longer selling out most of these venues so we are back to the point I made about TNA running bigger venues and not selling them out. TNA ran Hammerstein Ballroom and couldn't sell out. ROH has almost always drawn a legit sellout if not close to one in that venue. Sure Sinclair Broadcasting currently owns ROH and airs their program on their networks. For Sinclair Broadcasting this could be cheaper for them than running reruns of a couple of sitcoms so for them ROH is viable option. Well there's also the whole 'the company makes money for them' thing as well Also seeing ROH runs their PPV's and Television Tapings on back to back nights in the same venue this also saves them cash as they only have to set up and tear down once for multiple weeks of their program. Broadcasting only an hour of Television a week really helps ROH in this scenario. That's not always the case, though. They ran a TV taping in Philly the day after Final Battle in NYC. Meanwhile you have New Japan (hands down the Number Two promotion in the world) looking to gain a place in the North American market. If they do it right they could easily be the Number Two promotion in North America in only a few years time. Given what Kidani has said about how they're carrying out this attempt at an expansion and why they're doing it...my money is on Vince sending them back as quickly as humanly possible. All it will take is moving a couple of their PPV's to America and running them in Prime Time. All New Japan has to do is run a couple of shows of the caliber of their Wrestle Kingdom shows and have a fairly cheap price point they could easily gain more fans as they work to gain more main stream attention. New Japan don't view American PPV as a viable option and that's after they did 15,000 buys on US PPV at $45. If they ever did another NA PPV, it wouldn't be for any less than that...but again, they don't view it as viable. They don't even do PPV in Japan anymore, though that's something that never really caught on over there since everything pretty much reairs on TV anyway. Also, they wouldn't take one of their big events away from their key markets. They won't move the April/October Sumo Hall shows to the US, Dominion isn't leaving Osaka, Wrestling Dontaku isn't leaving Fukuoka, Destruction isn't leaving Kobe or Okayama. Sadly I don't think we will ever see another Monday Night War situation in Professional Wrestling, but if one of the above promotions can gain any sort of steam in the North American market it could force WWE to up their game. Especially when it comes to both Raw and Smackdown. Yeah, it's not going to happen ever again, at least not on that level. I think had New Japan moved in on the US market in the early 2000s just as everything started to crumble, they'd have had a way better chance than they do now. |
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Post by maddog1981 on Feb 17, 2017 9:54:02 GMT -5
The funny thing is, TNA made a profit the first 2 or 3 years that they did house shows. Then they hired Hogan and Bischoff and flushed it all down the toilet.
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