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Post by malicelover on Oct 25, 2021 19:11:06 GMT -5
I also resent the mischaracterization of my comments regarding Gotch's Death Jump ranking. Tim, the question was more along the lines of how Gotch could have an A ranking when someone like AJ Styles has just a B ranking. Also, because typically the Death Jump "A" rankings, you assume the holder of that A ranking will be top rope jumping savant. I guess the Frank Gotch moonsault will have to come into play moving forward. Still, in hindsight, that debate is less robust than the C Turnbuckle ranking for Curt Henning, right TTX? |
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Post by Pete on Oct 25, 2021 19:39:57 GMT -5
Deathjump ratings are a measure of how well you defend deathjumps, not how well you perform them. Is Styles particularly adept at dodging top-rope moves? For a small fast guy, not really, that I've seen.
Gotch is a guy who's going to do the full-on Kevin Owens/Samoa Joe "casually walk away" if some dude tries to axhandle him off the buckle. That said, he's elite for his time period, and I have penalized pioneer bootlegs of mine with B or C Deathjumps--guys who weren't top-level names like Gotch--on the basis of not being used to them. That said--the pioneer guys didn't do *any* moves off the ropes, turnbuckles, or out of the ring, either, the way we see it today. They're not going to get all C ratings for everything.
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Post by malicelover on Oct 25, 2021 20:00:39 GMT -5
Deathjump ratings are a measure of how well you defend deathjumps, not how well you perform them. Is Styles particularly adept at dodging top-rope moves? For a small fast guy, not really, that I've seen. Gotch is a guy who's going to do the full-on Kevin Owens/Samoa Joe "casually walk away" if some dude tries to axhandle him off the buckle. That said, he's elite for his time period, and I have penalized pioneer bootlegs of mine with B or C Deathjumps--guys who weren't top-level names like Gotch--on the basis of not being used to them. That said--the pioneer guys didn't do *any* moves off the ropes, turnbuckles, or out of the ring, either, the way we see it today. They're not going to get all C ratings for everything. , totally understand, it was just a surprise to see the Death Jump rating be that high. Believe me I have two books on Gotch, which I paid a ton for, but I love them nonetheless, because of the respect I have for Gotch. Again, it was just a surprise, is all. |
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Post by Vegas on Oct 25, 2021 20:02:28 GMT -5
Yeah, the chart ratings are defensive ratings. On his first card (his EVOLVE card) for example, I gave Jeff Cobb an A for deathjump because at that time he was constantly catching people in midair as they flew off the top rope at him (both as Jeff Cobb and as Matanza in Lucha Underground.)
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Post by Cory Olson on Oct 25, 2021 20:32:43 GMT -5
Tim, the question was more along the lines of how Gotch could have an A ranking when someone like AJ Styles has just a B ranking. Keep in mind, the LOW team didn't make AJ's card; he's part of the ROH line. But as Pete said, it's not as if AJ is known for frequently reversing or blocking his opponent's top-rope moves. I guess the Frank Gotch moonsault will have to come into play moving forward How would Frank Gotch do a moonsault? He doesn't have a deathjump or choice G or H. Pete and Zeke Vegas gave good summaries on the reasoning for deathjump ratings. Zeke's example with Jeff Cobb is also the reason why Warlord has a deathjump rating of "A." He would often catch guys in midair and immediately power slam them. I remember seeing him win a couple of matches with that spot. |
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Post by TTX on Oct 26, 2021 3:54:38 GMT -5
chart ratings is definitely something we could argue ages about...especially as they appear a lot more in the game than they do in actual wrestling.
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Post by malicelover on Oct 26, 2021 21:19:52 GMT -5
chart ratings is definitely something we could argue ages about...especially as they appear a lot more in the game than they do in actual wrestling. Not sure that I agree with it 100%, but hearing Chad and Tim explain the reasoning behind the C on Henning’s turnbuckle rating makes me at least understand the C rating more. Unrelated, I loved Chad discussing the hypothetical mechanic on a Flair card and then quickly said “We haven’t signed Ric Flair.” That made me laugh out loud in the car. |
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Post by TTX on Oct 27, 2021 4:11:05 GMT -5
I think it's how bad C ratings are on those charts vs what level the wrestlers were is my main issue.
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Post by natureboi on Oct 27, 2021 11:18:23 GMT -5
chart ratings is definitely something we could argue ages about...especially as they appear a lot more in the game than they do in actual wrestling. Not sure that I agree with it 100%, but hearing Chad and Tim explain the reasoning behind the C on Henning’s turnbuckle rating makes me at least understand the C rating more. Unrelated, I loved Chad discussing the hypothetical mechanic on a Flair card and then quickly said “We haven’t signed Ric Flair.” That made me laugh out loud in the car. Don't get me started on Flair: the man with a "finisher" that almost never won him a match against a top opponent. I would love to see how the team would handle that one. |
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Post by TTX on Oct 27, 2021 11:39:52 GMT -5
The problem doing "real" wrestling as we do in the game versus real world booking which prevented Flair from often winning with the Figure Four.
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