|
|
Post by Pariah on Oct 29, 2022 17:09:26 GMT -5
Official rule is to roll up an offensive level. Penalizing the tag specialist in singles matches is kind of the point of the rule.  I understand this logic to some degree... But, for the most part, I think tag specialists are at enough of a disadvantage when competing in singles action... For example, if someone like Ricky Morton or Bobby Eaton are involved in a singles match and roll their tag finisher, shouldn't they at least be given the chance to hit their singles finisher when rolling again? Ultimately, I'm not looking for an official rule change or anything... Just offering an alternate approach. |
|
|
|
Post by Pete on Oct 29, 2022 17:17:10 GMT -5
Official rule is to roll up an offensive level. Penalizing the tag specialist in singles matches is kind of the point of the rule. I understand this logic to some degree... But, for the most part, I think tag specialists are at enough of a disadvantage when competing in singles action... For example, if someone like Ricky Morton or Bobby Eaton are involved in a singles match and roll their tag finisher, shouldn't they at least be given the chance to hit their singles finisher when rolling again? Ultimately, I'm not looking for an official rule change or anything... Just offering an alternate approach. The problem is now you're giving them an *advantage* in singles matches, which is the opposite of how it should be. A one-in-five chance of hitting a finisher as opposed to one-in-six (granted, one-in-five is worse than the two-in-four that most tag wrestlers would have in a tag match, but it's still better than a lot of singles opponents). |
|
|
|
Post by Pariah on Oct 29, 2022 17:32:29 GMT -5
I understand this logic to some degree... But, for the most part, I think tag specialists are at enough of a disadvantage when competing in singles action... For example, if someone like Ricky Morton or Bobby Eaton are involved in a singles match and roll their tag finisher, shouldn't they at least be given the chance to hit their singles finisher when rolling again? Ultimately, I'm not looking for an official rule change or anything... Just offering an alternate approach. The problem is now you're giving them an *advantage* in singles matches, which is the opposite of how it should be. A one-in-five chance of hitting a finisher as opposed to one-in-six (granted, one-in-five is worse than the two-in-four that most tag wrestlers would have in a tag match, but it's still better than a lot of singles opponents). Actually it would still only be a 1 in 6 chance of hitting the singles finisher with an additional 1 in 6 chance to try again... Not sure what that works out to mathematically (something like 1/6 + 1/36 + 1/216...) but it's certainly does not become 1 in 5. |
|
|
|
Post by on_the_edge on Oct 29, 2022 20:10:51 GMT -5
I see both sides of the discussion. For me, it depends on the individual wrestler. Some really are more a tag team wrestler and they have their advantages in tag matches but struggle in single matches. However, there are guys who were decent or even good single wrestlers either before being in a tag team and/or after. Someone like Tully Blanchard comes to mind. In that case, if it is me, I would either substitute a single move for the tag one or use the single finisher if they have one in addition to their tag finisher. I mean if you roll a 6 it means the wrestler is trying to end the match with a finisher.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cory Olson on Oct 29, 2022 21:58:29 GMT -5
As was mentioned in an earlier post, the Havoc Rule (i.e., rolling up to the lower level of offense) became the official rule for Legends quite a while ago. I don't know if it's an official rule for any other Filsinger Games lines. I think with FG characters, who are fictional, promoters didn't realize how rerolling on the same offensive level could help them in singles matches because these are fictional characters we haven't seen actually wrestle. I think of a guy like Pete mentioned such as Vlad Hammer/Gemini/Hammer. I always enjoyed using his card in singles or tags, as I saw him as a good worker: someone who could have good, competitive matches but not necessarily win them all. If he did pull a singles upset, it was fun!
With real-life wrestlers in Legends, who have or had careers and achievements, you sort of have an idea of how they should compete. The Road Warriors were one of the top tag teams of all time and in the game, their cards reflect that. As singles competitors in real life, yes, they did get big matches, such as each of them challenging Ric Flair for the NWA World title at various times. And while they might have competitive matches, they weren't going to become the top singles champion. There should be a way for them to compete against singles stars but not win the majority of the time. In the early years of Legends, we were seeing guys like Johnny Valiant, Hawk, Bobby Eaton, and others win against legends they shouldn't be beating in singles bouts because rerolling on the same level gave them more of a chance to hit their finisher that worked in singles or tags. Incorporating the Havoc Rule made those scenarios less likely to happen. Sure, the dice can always dictate something else. But this little step made it less often.
I don't like the idea of making a tag finisher an automatic (0) singles finisher unless it's stated that way on the bottom of the card. Guys like both members of The Powers of Pain have that built into their LOW VI cards because they did spend a lot of their careers apart from each other or in tag teams with other guys. Guys who don't have that built-in just shouldn't be as competitive on the singles level.
Hope that all makes sense! Some great dicussion here!
|
|
|
|
Post by Travis605 on Oct 29, 2022 22:13:07 GMT -5
The best thing is you can play however you see fit. One thing I don't do is the "havok" rule. I actually just reroll on the same level offense. The rule never did it for me, although I can see why people use it.
|
|
|
|
Post by j on Oct 30, 2022 0:51:04 GMT -5
Instead of re-rolling I just count it as one of their other level 3 moves
|
|
|
|
Post by Bazzy on Oct 30, 2022 6:14:43 GMT -5
Single wrestler with a tag team finish. I would reroll again until a different number .
|
|
|
|
Post by Vegas on Oct 30, 2022 7:09:01 GMT -5
As was mentioned in an earlier post, the Havoc Rule (i.e., rolling up to the lower level of offense) became the official rule for Legends quite a while ago. I don't know if it's an official rule for any other Filsinger Games lines. I think with FG characters, who are fictional, promoters didn't realize how rerolling on the same offensive level could help them in singles matches because these are fictional characters we haven't seen actually wrestle. I think of a guy like Pete mentioned such as Vlad Hammer/Gemini/Hammer. I always enjoyed using his card in singles or tags, as I saw him as a good worker: someone who could have good, competitive matches but not necessarily win them all. If he did pull a singles upset, it was fun! With real-life wrestlers in Legends, who have or had careers and achievements, you sort of have an idea of how they should compete. The Road Warriors were one of the top tag teams of all time and in the game, their cards reflect that. As singles competitors in real life, yes, they did get big matches, such as each of them challenging Ric Flair for the NWA World title at various times. And while they might have competitive matches, they weren't going to become the top singles champion. There should be a way for them to compete against singles stars but not win the majority of the time. In the early years of Legends, we were seeing guys like Johnny Valiant, Hawk, Bobby Eaton, and others win against legends they shouldn't be beating in singles bouts because rerolling on the same level gave them more of a chance to hit their finisher that worked in singles or tags. Incorporating the Havoc Rule made those scenarios less likely to happen. Sure, the dice can always dictate something else. But this little step made it less often. I don't like the idea of making a tag finisher an automatic (0) singles finisher unless it's stated that way on the bottom of the card. Guys like both members of The Powers of Pain have that built into their LOW VI cards because they did spend a lot of their careers apart from each other or in tag teams with other guys. Guys who don't have that built-in just shouldn't be as competitive on the singles level. Hope that all makes sense! Some great dicussion here! the havoc rule was that an Errata introduced in an expansion? I take it is in the ringside companion Vol.1? Which hopefully I will buy this next order. I say this as I only have the LOW starter that shipped with the white game instructions. Word by word for 11 Double Team Tag Moves is the same as the white game instructions that came with the Evolve starter. Just a heads up for the production team when they do the next LOW starter revision.
It kinda makes sense too for LOW only get the roll up versus say modern day (Indy). It slows them down to a more grounded methodical pace in their era.. maybe i am just overthinking it 
It also makes sense for Indies. For example, Duke Davis & Ganon Jones Jr. should be less proficient as singles wrestlers compared to when they team together as the Mane Event as they have not had the same level of success in singles competition. Regarding tag finishers, on the Indy cards I have been assigned the last few years, for tag teams I often make it a point to write their cards in a way (usually with a mechanic) where a singles finisher substitutes for a tag finisher for wrestlers who have also had recent success in singles competition at the time their card was released. For example, in the last two Best of Indy Tag Teams sets, I did that for guys such as Thom Latimer, Royce Isaacs, Eric Ryan, Bobby Beverly (who won Tournament of Death this weekend,) and Danny Limelight (who may become the Heritage Champion at the upcoming Red Carpet Rumble.) |
|
|
|
Post by Vegas on Oct 30, 2022 13:25:43 GMT -5
I will say this as on Cedric Alexander's tag card (ROH Starter set) there is no single finishers. I did not do any of the Cedric Alexander cards, so I have no comment on that card. However, Cedric Alexander did later get a singles card which if possible I would definitely recommend using for singles matches. |
|
