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Post by Justin Case on Oct 29, 2011 20:16:09 GMT -5
too bad she wasn't used that much as of late. I'm sure she'll do very well in the modeling industry/porn/whatever she'll do.
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Post by Shon Maxx on Oct 30, 2011 3:44:27 GMT -5
Bummer, I was hoping to see her face Phoenix and/or Natalya. I guess Vince will just continue to push eye candy, which isn't much of a shock.
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Post by swarm on Oct 30, 2011 10:41:58 GMT -5
I don't know that I'd put Angle in as a "nobody", but your point is well taken. In my opinion, "FREE" probably sounds better than "FIRED" or "DUMPED ON MY ASS". That would be valid if several of these people weren't the ones asking to be released (as was the case here). I think it's more indicative of horribly low morale in the company. They call the wrestlers/performers/entertainers "independent contractors" so they don't have to give them benefits or health insurance and proceed to manage every aspect of their lives while they're employed by the company including conduct away from the company, the way they dress in public, and what outside gigs they take while under WWE employ. Gotta call bs on this. Wrestlers know exactly what they are getting into when they sign their contracts. You paint a picture that suggests the wrestlers are being blindsided with insurance and conduct policies. Aside from not providing insurance, the rest of this is normal practice for all big American businesses. When you work for a major corporate face you are expected to represent that company 24 hours a day. On work grounds, off work grounds, in public, on Facebook, Twitter, everything. The more money that comes with certain position also comes with more personal responsibility. This is hardly specific to the WWE. Chavo might get upset that Zack Ryder is getting pushed and he isn't...Gail Kim can be pissed about her position in the Diva's roster...Jeff Hardy, Kurt Angle and RVD can be upset with the drug policy...old and broke pieces of shit like Raven can go dumpster diving for cash by trying to sue Vince over his "independent contractors" policy...Maryse can be upset they had nothing for her storyline wise. None of that makes WWE another the evil corporate empire you make it out to be. Not even close. It's every wrestlers dream to wrestle in the WWE, not leave it. |
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Post by marktaggart on Oct 30, 2011 13:40:55 GMT -5
None of that makes WWE another the evil corporate empire you make it out to be. Not even close. It's every wrestlers dream to wrestle in the WWE, not leave it. I recall listening to a podcast with Mike Quackenbush several weeks back where he indicated he never had the desire to work for the WWE because of the corporate structure and stylistic viewpoint of wrestling that didn't match his own. He's far from alone in that sentiment and he's certainly not one of those bitter guys who is just full of sour grapes because he never got "the call". That's just one example so I can safely safe it is not the dream of all wrestlers. I suppose from a fan's standpoint it seems like the "dream job", and it certainly used to be just that. However, a whole lot of their former employees (many of whom either asked for their release or declined to negotiate a new deal) have publicly shared stories to indicate that is no longer the case. Again, one or two could be "bitter ex-employee", but when the numbers continue to grow it gets harder to ignore that there is a bigger problem there. |
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Post by swarm on Oct 30, 2011 14:05:39 GMT -5
That's fair. You can't make all of the people happy all the time especially in an enviroment where the success of your workers is largly based on pure fantasy booking, unlike most positions where pure performance rules all. If it were the Jericho's, Taker's, Rock's and others making these claims, disgruntled and walking away in ther primes I'd lean toward their being problems. Losing people like Chavo, Gail Kim, Chris Masters etc...imo says more about them having problems than the WWE. The strict, capitalistic world of big business pays for a reason. Follow in line, do as your told, work hard and you'll make more money, and gain more recognition for your efforts. It's understandably not for everyone. And when people fail to follow through with the structured path laid out for them, it's easier to blame the machine than themselves. This applies to many aspects of life, not just a goal orientated life style. It's a lot easier to say and accept "I'm not interestred in them" than it is to say "they are not interested in me."
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Post by floydthebarber on Oct 30, 2011 14:07:40 GMT -5
I think Mark T's points about how a wrestler might feel ‘free’ getting out from under some pretty restrictive corporate conditions are very valid. I don't think anyone was playing the 'evil corporate empire' card here.
Its all about perspective and perception. I’m sure all wrestlers are aware of ‘what they’re getting into’ initially when they sign with the WWE, as there is no doubt that it is the big leagues and probably every wresters dream come true. But once in, like with a lot of companies, it may not be a great fit. The fame and money might be good, and while some take to, and thrive in the cutthroat business/corporate/political/image side of the industry, others might feel like they’re being undervalued, or being forced into a role that’s not what they had envisioned when they joined the company. So are they, or any of us, just supposed to suck it up and be miserable for the next 5-10-20 years because ‘you’re in the WWE’ and it’s good money? Some would argue yes, and I’m not here to say they’re wrong…the window is small and you’ve got to maximize your potential while you can. But when you see other wrestlers being let go, or jobbed out, or being misused, and then dumped by the wayside, and you’re only considered an independent contractor by this wonderful, all powerful entertainment and media giant, maybe you start to think that this isn’t the place for you.
Is it a classy move to hop on twitter and tweet after leaving a job? No, and I’ve made my thoughts on spouting off on social media pretty clear in other threads, but this is the age we live in now and some people don’t know any better. But should it be considered spitting in the face of ones former employer? I don’t think that’s what ‘most’ of these people are doing…some take cheap shots out of spite and are very ‘unprofessional’, but I think in this case, this girl is just ready to do other things and wants her ‘fans’ to know and to follow her wherever she ends up going. And lets be honest, I’m not sure Maryse is a wrestler first, so WWE may not have been her ‘dream’ job in the first place…just a springboard to something else.
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Post by vx on Oct 30, 2011 14:21:54 GMT -5
This isn't something that is isolated just to wrestling either. How many times have we heard highly paid NFL and NBA players complain and tried to compare their own work environments to slavery?
It takes a special kind of mentality to enter and succeed in any of these sports or sports entertainments. It takes more than just talent. It really does take a lot of sacrifice and being willing to make this endeavor the top priority in your life over anything else.
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Post by floydthebarber on Oct 30, 2011 15:58:31 GMT -5
This isn't something that is isolated just to wrestling either. How many times have we heard highly paid NFL and NBA players complain and tried to compare their own work environments to slavery? It takes a special kind of mentality to enter and succeed in any of these sports or sports entertainments. It takes more than just talent. It really does take a lot of sacrifice and being willing to make this endeavor the top priority in your life over anything else. Great point. How often do we here pro's talking about 'the game' being X% skill and Y% mental? And usually Y is a bigger number than X. |
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Post by marktaggart on Oct 30, 2011 16:15:43 GMT -5
That's a good point to explore further, Rob: the WWE has become a very structured, corporate "do as you're told, go along and get along" environment. It works for them to do business that way from a company standpoint, but it's a very "left brain" mindset. Wrestling has traditionally attracted the creative, abstract thinking "right brain" types who cannot stand that sort of thing. The right brain, artist type is often not concerned about money or "success" on the societal standard. They just want to explore creativity and be a success on their own terms. Many have used wrestling as a canvas to do that. Maryse is not likely in that category, and it is funny it's her post that's gotten this discussion going, but she does seem to be more of a free spirit type and that is perhaps part of the problem here. Another part of it is probably her going from the focal point of the division to injured and swept under the rug, but that's just how the WWE is with the divas ("even steven" booking, no one allowed to get too far over the others).
During the days of Rock, Austin, etc they were not nearly as structured. Those guys were given a lot more liberty to do their own thing and were more in control of their own destiny, to some extent. Now it is largely scripted and wrestlers/performers feel restricted and like their success or failure is out of their hands. You can't get another breakout Stone Cold type because the writers are largely coming up with characters and telling them every word to say (remember how cool it was back in July when Punk was allowed free reign as opposed to current "corporate Punk"?). They are micromanaged to the point that it does seem to cause a great deal of frustration to the point where we see this backlash online.
Again, I don't agree with the childish social media posts, but I can understand why some people feel the need.
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Post by swarm on Oct 31, 2011 9:20:51 GMT -5
I thought this was a really good post when I read it so I wanted to take the time to respond to it. Its all about perspective and perception. I’m sure all wrestlers are aware of ‘what they’re getting into’ initially when they sign with the WWE, as there is no doubt that it is the big leagues and probably every wresters dream come true. But once in, like with a lot of companies, it may not be a great fit. The fame and money might be good, and while some take to, and thrive in the cutthroat business/corporate/political/image side of the industry, others might feel like they’re being undervalued, or being forced into a role that’s not what they had envisioned when they joined the company. So are they, or any of us, just supposed to suck it up and be miserable for the next 5-10-20 years because ‘you’re in the WWE’ and it’s good money? I totally agree with everything here and answer the question this way - No one should be miserable at their job or in anything in life they have control over. These types you describe have options, one of which is to quit. You can't claim to be FREE when no one was holding you hostage to begin with. If the subject wants to dig deeper into the self-psychosis of it, and proclaim themselves "FREE" from their own personal torment of sticking with a job that makes them miserable, that's different. But none of these wrestlers are '"FREE" from anything WWE related, because they were FREE to leave anytime they wanted. Some would argue yes, and I’m not here to say they’re wrong…the window is small and you’ve got to maximize your potential while you can. But when you see other wrestlers being let go, or jobbed out, or being misused, and then dumped by the wayside, and you’re only considered an independent contractor by this wonderful, all powerful entertainment and media giant, maybe you start to think that this isn’t the place for you. I like your post because you try to see both sides. I would think the majority of all professionals, regardless of their line of work, strive to reach the top of whatever it is they are doing. Sometimes it doesn't work out. That's (at least to me) not up for debate here. My angle is how can you be free of something you yourself pursued? You can't. Example: if you go to college. It's a lot of hard work...it takes up time...you make a lot of sacrifices. If you all of a sudden you decide to drop out because you didn't want to deal with the work, the studying, the commitment etc...you would never say "Finally! I'm FREE from college." No one was keeping you there and no one was keeping these wrestlers in the WWE. And that's the angle that this discussion is around. I feel like the WWE was painted like an evil corporation, making these poor wrestler's lives miserable, and because of their unhappiness, there is some major underlined "problem" in the WWE, and I do not agree that there is. That's a good point to explore further, Rob: the WWE has become a very structured, corporate "do as you're told, go along and get along" environment. It works for them to do business that way from a company standpoint, but it's a very "left brain" mindset. Wrestling has traditionally attracted the creative, abstract thinking "right brain" types who cannot stand that sort of thing. The right brain, artist type is often not concerned about money or "success" on the societal standard. They just want to explore creativity and be a success on their own terms. Many have used wrestling as a canvas to do that. Maryse is not likely in that category, and it is funny it's her post that's gotten this discussion going, but she does seem to be more of a free spirit type and that is perhaps part of the problem here. Another part of it is probably her going from the focal point of the division to injured and swept under the rug, but that's just how the WWE is with the divas ("even steven" booking, no one allowed to get too far over the others). During the days of Rock, Austin, etc they were not nearly as structured. Those guys were given a lot more liberty to do their own thing and were more in control of their own destiny, to some extent. Now it is largely scripted and wrestlers/performers feel restricted and like their success or failure is out of their hands. You can't get another breakout Stone Cold type because the writers are largely coming up with characters and telling them every word to say (remember how cool it was back in July when Punk was allowed free reign as opposed to current "corporate Punk"?). They are micromanaged to the point that it does seem to cause a great deal of frustration to the point where we see this backlash online. Again, I don't agree with the childish social media posts, but I can understand why some people feel the need. I don't. I think it's a monolith-sized red flag, displaying a great weakness in anyone who runs to social media air their disgruntled feeling about such personal and private matters. What purpose does it serve other than to make the subject feel better about themselves failing at something so many of their colleagues succeed at? It's also lesson one in the business world, don't burn your bridges. I do however agree with the first part of your post. Sad fact is the WWE has not been the same and probably never will be now that they are a publicly traded company. No longer a "wrestling company", the WWE has to keep a lot of different people happy, vs. just doing whatever the hell it is that they want. I think that is the real culprit here. |
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